Fermenting Feed for Meat Birds

[colburg]

A quick note on fermenting pecans: They float.

My process consists of pouring the liquid off the top, then scooping the FF out. Now, when I pour off the liquid, all the pecans float out with it and it's a pain to seperate them. I suppose a strainer would make quick work of this. Do you think my wife would mind if I borrowed one of hers?

She's gone shopping today, maybe I'll beat her home and she'll never know. Let's keep this our little secret.

Lesson learned: Perform a float test before just bailing into new foods to ferment. If your FF doesn't have the layer of liquid on top, then I suppose it's OK.

Anyway, they loved 'em fermented but they love 'em raw as well, so that's the way I'll go.

 

[flyinchicks]

My pen is under a pecan tree and I crack and feed them what falls in the run. I swear they have good ears because as soon as they hear me cracking them I am surrounded. They love them. Its a shame they cant crack them by themselves. Never thought about putting them in the FF.

 

[Tivona]

Just thought I would post some observations of my ff experiences. First not all brands smell the same fermenting. I know this should be obvious, but I was surprised just how different they can be. I had been using Payback and the ff from it smells sweet and tangy and bubbles well. I had gotten a $10 off coupon for 2 bags of Purina Layena. So I decided to get that this time. I added the Purina to the same liquid I had had the Payback in so the cultures are the same. Ummmm, the Purina smells a little bit like vomit after fermenting a day. My ducks hesitated a day just nibbling it but the next they munched it the same as they had on the Payback. The Purina smelled nice in the dry state and I was using the same liquid that had been nice smelling the day before so it is the Purina Layena that is stinky after fermenting it for me.

Second, I have always fed 2 types of feed to my layer ducks. One is a layer pellet and the other is a waterfowl feed. I ferment both but not together. I feed them side by side. My drake, ganders, and girls that aren't laying usually eat more of the waterfowl feed and the ones laying eat more of the layer ferment. They seem to know what they need and it works well for me. The waterfowl feed is 20% protein though so I like to cut it a bit even though they free range and probably balance it pretty well. Recently I tried grass pellets. The birds love them! I had given them alfalfa pellets in the ferment before but they didn't much care for the alfalfa so I could only use a handful. I let the grass pellets soak in the ferment water for 24 hours before mixing it with the waterfowl feed and I missed a day of having it soaked so gave them the waterfowl ferment without the grass and they tasted it and looked disappointed, eating it without any gusto. Got more grass pellets soaked and mixed it in and wham. So grass pellets good and tasty, alfalfa good for them but not tasty. The grass pellets I got are 8% protein so good for cutting a too high protein feed.

Third, my birds prefer to drink water that has a little ferment liquid in it. Mine given two containers of water one fresh/clean/plain and the other fresh but with a bit of ferment liquid will always go to the ferment liquid one. I found this out by filling a feed container with water to soak. They really loved drinking from the soaking feed dish from the day before. So instead of just rinsing and dumping I just have a couple of dishes that I rotate so they can drink from the soaking one.

Fourth, I got 2 pheasants given to me for food (still to young to butcher) and they are doing great on the ff. No one had posted anything on pheasants and ff so I just wanted to state that mine are eating it well, growing, and look more healthy then when they came. They don't seem to drink any water at all eating the ff...I do have it drained and its a think paste when I feed it but apparently it is wet enough so they may only sip the water available not really bringing the level down.

Anyway those are some of the things I have noticed feeding the ff.

 

[colburg]

Third, my birds prefer to drink water that has a little ferment liquid in it. Mine given two containers of water one fresh/clean/plain and the other fresh but with a bit of ferment liquid will always go to the ferment liquid one. I found this out by filling a feed container with water to soak. They really loved drinking from the soaking feed dish from the day before. So instead of just rinsing and dumping I just have a couple of dishes that I rotate so they can drink from the soaking one.

Putting the ferment liquid is an excellent idea. I wish I'da thought of that. I'll have to try it when I get home.

Have you tried a comparison of ACV water vs FF water?

 

[Beekissed]

I'm back a few pages trying to catch up from the weekend, but what did you use for the coating?

They come with a white coating inside the gutter that protects the metal from rusting...some kind of baked on stuff, I'm assuming. Whatever it is stays on even with the FF being fed in it since early spring.

I've found that the best way to keep the FF cooking well is to leave a quarter of your amount, add two to three scoops more food, then add enough hot water to have about two inches over the food. I stir that up, and its real soupy, letting it cook for about two hours and getting real bubbly. Then I add another scoop or so of food, let that thicken up and the chickens love it. It took me a while to figure out my own method, but I've found that if you keep it real thin at first it starts to cook faster.
I've also noticed that the longer the batch lasts, the thinner it gets. I tried making more at once, but by the fourth or fifth days it just grosses me out. So now I make enough for three maybe four days, and by the last day it's pretty soupy, but the chickens still love it.
I'm still happy with the FF. Even with it being colder out it's still worth it to me. There is no smell in the coop, or the barn, and all my birds look beautiful.

Y'all are making fresh batches each time you make FF?

I didn't realize that!

Not for you in particular, Ash, but I was wondering why everyone was having such a time with getting the smell, the amount of ferment and consistency right...it seems so simple to me but on this thread it seems very, very difficult and time consuming.

I was wondering why all the fuss and muss with strainers, soupy and sloppy messes, wondering if it was fermenting, etc. Seems like a lot of equipment being used out there for something so simple. I guess I wasn't reading the posts closely or I would have realized that folks were trying to repeat the FF ritual every 3-4 days and maybe that's why it has become such a complicated thing.

Then someone new to the thread PMd me awhile back and was sort of chuckling about all the complicated maneuvers folks were getting into in order to get with this FF and was laughing about the fact that he and I seemed to be some of the few that had stuck with the simple and original game plan. I guess he had been making FF for years and did it much like I had started out with...and have continued with, as it seems the most simple, cleanest and effective way to produce the FF.

The very simple 2 buckets of the same size being nestled down, one within the other, to keep equipment and questions simple. You folks do realize that they make 1, 2 and 3 gal. buckets that are easily found and cheaply purchased for those who are making smaller batches? Or, you can just make a partial bucket full if you already have the 5 gal. on hand. That two bucket system was handy for draining out large amounts of feed for CX but the system is still useful when not picking up the top bucket for straining...you can use the system to keep a reservoir of the properly cultivated ferment in the bottom bucket. It's useful in both ways...no need to keep trying to find different bowels, totes, colanders, strainers and set ups that aren't messy in your laundry room to have successful, consistent, non-messy FF. Mine is sitting in my bedroom, neat and non-smelly, easy to access, easy to maintain.

I guess what I'm trying to ask was what was so difficult about containing the mess into the space that a bucket occupies, just adding to your mix of FF with fresh feed every other day to keep a running batch of FF that~when kept in a cool but not cold room~yields just the right amount of fermented cultures in the mix. When it gets too strong, water it down with fresh water additions each time. If it's smelling not pickley enough, add a glug of ACV with your water every now and again.

The reservoir in the bottom bucket is a really good place to regulate the strength of the fermented fluids and it stays pretty constant if you just roll your fermented mix along in this manner, not stopping and starting fresh batches every 2-3 days.

You really don't have to keep the mix submerged and soupy all the time to avoid molds. I never keep mine submerged and will have a light skiff of grey mother on the top of the feed mix each day but that kind of mold doesn't disturb me. It also doesn't seem to affect the chickens. It's easy to keep the feed at the right fermentation by keeping a rolling mix, fresh feed added every other day, fresh water along with that, keeping it at a mortar-like consistency and even have a scoop that has holed drilled in case it still has some juiciness in it that needs dripped out and my trough has holes drilled in it as well to let out any excess moisture.

Feeding of a morning consists of scooping out feed into a small bucket that gets toted up to the coop, placed in the trough, fresh and dry feed taken from the feed barrel and into the small bucket, carried back to the house and placed back into the FF bucket, water is added, stirred well with the scoop and the lid is replaced. Takes all of 3 min. to accomplish and doesn't take draining, slopping, restarting fresh batches, etc.

Just saying..it doesn't have to be this messy, complicated process that one has to think much about to keep it of a consistency that isn't messy and consistently fermented well.

 

[Lacy Blues]

Recently I tried grass pellets. The birds love them! I had given them alfalfa pellets in the ferment before but they didn't much care for the alfalfa so I could only use a handful. I let the grass pellets soak in the ferment water for 24 hours before mixing it with the waterfowl feed and I missed a day of having it soaked so gave them the waterfowl ferment without the grass and they tasted it and looked disappointed, eating it without any gusto. Got more grass pellets soaked and mixed it in and wham. So grass pellets good and tasty, alfalfa good for them but not tasty. The grass pellets I got are 8% protein so good for cutting a too high protein feed.

What kind of grass pellets are you able to get?

My local store has burmuda, alfalfa, alfalfa/oat, oat, and timothy grass pellets. I was considering getting the timothy to try it but it was $20 for 50 pounds and if they didn't like it, then I'd be out $20 and right now, I can't afford to toss money in the trash can.

 

[aoxa]

I'm back a few pages trying to catch up from the weekend, but what did you use for the coating?

They come with a white coating inside the gutter that protects the metal from rusting...some kind of baked on stuff, I'm assuming.  Whatever it is stays on even with the FF being fed in it since early spring. 

I've found that the best way to keep the FF cooking well is to leave a quarter of your amount, add two to three scoops more food, then add enough hot water to have about two inches over the food. I stir that up, and its real soupy, letting it cook for about two hours and getting real bubbly. Then I add another scoop or so of food, let that thicken up and the chickens love it. It took me a while to figure out my own method, but I've found that if you keep it real thin at first it starts to cook faster.

I've also noticed that the longer the batch lasts, the thinner it gets. I tried making more at once, but by the fourth or fifth days it just grosses me out. So now I make enough for three maybe four days, and by the last day it's pretty soupy, but the chickens still love it.

I'm still happy with the FF. Even with it being colder out it's still worth it to me. There is no smell in the coop, or the barn, and all my birds look beautiful.

Y'all are making fresh batches each time you make FF? I didn't realize that! 

Not for you in particular, Ash, but I was wondering why everyone was having such a time with getting the smell, the amount of ferment and consistency right...it seems so simple to me but on this thread it seems very, very difficult and time consuming.

I was wondering why all the fuss and muss with strainers, soupy and sloppy messes, wondering if it was fermenting, etc.  Seems like a lot of equipment being used out there for something so simple.  I guess I wasn't reading the posts closely or I would have realized that folks were trying to repeat the FF ritual every 3-4 days and maybe that's why it has become such a complicated thing.

Then someone new to the thread PMd me awhile back and was sort of chuckling about all the complicated maneuvers folks were getting into in order to get with this FF and was laughing about the fact that he and I seemed to be some of the few that had stuck with the simple and original game plan.  I guess he had been making FF for years and did it much like I had started out with...and have continued with, as it seems the most simple, cleanest and effective way to produce the FF. 

The very simple 2 buckets of the same size being nestled down, one within the other, to keep equipment and questions simple.  You folks do realize that they make 1, 2 and 3 gal. buckets that are easily found and cheaply purchased for those who are making smaller batches?  Or, you can just make a partial bucket full if you already have the 5 gal. on hand.  That two bucket system was handy for draining out large amounts of feed for CX but the system is still useful when not picking up the top bucket for straining...you can use the system to keep a reservoir of the properly cultivated ferment in the bottom bucket.  It's useful in both ways...no need to keep trying to find different bowels, totes, colanders, strainers and set ups that aren't messy in your laundry room to have successful, consistent, non-messy FF.  Mine is sitting in my bedroom, neat and non-smelly, easy to access, easy to maintain. 

I guess what I'm trying to ask was what was so difficult about containing the mess into the space that a bucket occupies, just adding to your mix of FF with fresh feed every other day to keep a running batch of FF that~when kept in a cool but not cold room~yields just the right amount of fermented cultures in the mix.  When it gets too strong, water it down with fresh water additions each time.  If it's smelling not pickley enough, add a glug of ACV with your water every now and again.

The reservoir in the bottom bucket is a really good place to regulate the strength of the fermented fluids and it stays pretty constant if you just roll your fermented mix along in this manner, not stopping and starting fresh batches every 2-3 days. 

You really don't have to keep the mix submerged and soupy all the time to avoid molds. I never keep mine submerged and will have a light skiff of grey mother on the top of the feed mix each day but that kind of mold doesn't disturb me.  It also doesn't seem to affect the chickens.  It's easy to keep the feed at the right fermentation by keeping a rolling mix, fresh feed added every other day, fresh water along with that, keeping it at a mortar-like consistency and even have a scoop that has holed drilled in case it still has some juiciness in it that needs dripped out and my trough has holes drilled in it as well to let out any excess moisture.

Feeding of a morning consists of scooping out feed into a small bucket that gets toted up to the coop, placed in the trough, fresh and dry feed taken from the feed barrel and into the small bucket, carried back to the house and  placed back into the FF bucket, water is added, stirred well with the scoop and the lid is replaced.  Takes all of 3 min. to accomplish and doesn't take draining, slopping, restarting fresh batches, etc. 

Just saying..it doesn't have to be this messy, complicated process that one has to think much about to keep it of a consistency that isn't messy and  consistently fermented well.   

I didn't get the feeling that people were starting fresh every few days...? Who is..?

I don't use the two bucket system, but I constantly have fermented feed already in there and mix in new feed with water and ACV to the old one. I can not lift an entire bucket up to drain excess fluids. My feed container is a 17 gallon garbage can. That is heavy when full of FF. So having one inside the other and lifting to drain off the liquid is not manageable.

 

[Tivona]

Putting the ferment liquid is an excellent idea. I wish I'da thought of that. I'll have to try it when I get home.

Have you tried a comparison of ACV water vs FF water?

I have added ACV to their regular water but I don't do it each time. I have ducks and geese and have to change a couple of kiddie ponds each day so I don't always get the ACV in the water. They do seem to prefer the FF water to the ACV water though. The ACV water and regular water they treat exactly the same. They act like the FF water is special.

What kind of grass pellets are you able to get?

My local store has burmuda, alfalfa, alfalfa/oat, oat, and timothy grass pellets. I was considering getting the timothy to try it but it was $20 for 50 pounds and if they didn't like it, then I'd be out $20 and right now, I can't afford to toss money in the trash can.

The grass pellets I got are timothy and ryegrass. It has some grain dust as a filler, probably to help it bind the pellets together. Its not that shocking bright green of alfalfa but its more of a tan/khaki color. Smells like good grass hay. I said it had 8%protein, but its 9%. I got 50 pounds for $9.49. Do you know anyone with horses or rabbits that might be getting the grass pellets? You might be able to get a little bit to try your birds on it before buying a whole big bag that way.

 

[Beekissed]

I didn't get the feeling that people were starting fresh every few days...? Who is..?
I don't use the two bucket system, but I constantly have fermented feed already in there and mix in new feed with water and ACV to the old one. I can not lift an entire bucket up to drain excess fluids. My feed container is a 17 gallon garbage can. That is heavy when full of FF. So having one inside the other and lifting to drain off the liquid is not manageable.

That's what I'm trying to explain...one does not have to ever lift the bucket one from another to use this method and it still be perfect for the job. You don't ever have to drain any liquid if you mix the consistency correctly and don't make it a ferment soup but rather a ferment porridge or mortar. When having to feed off the whole bucket to meaty birds and using a 50/50 mix of whole grains and mash, it was very convenient to be able to strain off the whole bucket a little bit just to give it a little dryer consistency as one has to cook quickly when feeding the entire 5 gal. bucket in 2 days time. This really required more water throughout the mix in order to soak and ferment those feeds quickly. One only had to live it about 10 in. to get it up far enough to drain quickly.

Having the buckets nest one inside the other is convenient for maintaining a reservoir of FF water that, when fresh water is added to the top bucket, rises up and throughout the feed mix. That way you never have to "make a new batch" of FF and start a new culture...there is a heavily populated culture lying in wait at the bottom of the buckets that is constantly being refurbished, fed and healthy from the drain-off of the bucket above. It's a perfect little cooker. This also means your FF water isn't ever all soaked into the feed but some is saved down below at all times. It maintains a constant level and is only borrowed from in the process.

In a one container system, one would weaken the ferment water by the soaking into the dry feed and concurrent extraction from the bucket unless you kept it a soup instead of a porridge...which seems to be what folks are having to do. Sloppy, messy and time consuming, requiring straining with a strainer which has to sit and drain out for each scoop of the feed. When feeding several scoops this could be a time consuming and tiresome ritual each day.

Most folks are not doing the big batches that you are, so this doesn't necessarily apply to someone doing FF in garbage cans....how many birds are you feeding out of that can and how often do you feed?

 

[smyers32]

I don't know if I'm doing it 'right' but it certainly is easy. One bucket (maybe a little more than 5gal) I started it about 2/3 full, feed one scoop a day (my scoop is about 1qt-ish) and when I use about half the feed I add more dry and warm water to keep it about a porridge or gruel-like consistency. So when I add fresh feed and water, there is usually an equal amount of FF left to mix into it. It smells more like fresh wet feed when I first replenish, but the whole batch smells ferment-y by the next morning. Chickens love it and I don't have to run multiple buckets, or strain or anything. The only thing I'm not certain of is if it's fermented enough? I've never had any grey mother stuff on top.
Oh, also as I'm only feeding a small amount everyday it takes about a week to go thru half of it before I add in fresh.