Food question

[Brooks_]

Back yard chicken Facebook group.

I see. "I" would not feed a high calcium/layer feed to a roo that I want to keep long term.

 

[MysteryChicken]

I see. "I" would not feed a high calcium/layer feed to a roo that I want to keep long term.

Same. I used to along time ago, until I learned it could cause kidney damage.

 

[U_Stormcrow]

All Flock/Flock raiser oyster shell on the side. They will, eventually eat it.

Unless you don't plan to keep the Roo. The issue with the feed isn't the protein, its the excess calcium, which the Roo can't process and can't excrete easily. Your Polish will have the same potential problems as the Roo, just slower to show, because the Polish do, occasionally, lay an egg.

Too much calcium can be as bad as too little
When chicks were fed excessive CaCo3, some of them manifested the toes and legs bent in an abnormal direction and final inability to walk in proportion to the dose of calcium.
(Study goes on to compare effects of CaCo3 [Calcium Carbonate] with CaHPo4 [DiCalcium Phosphate] tl;dr - CaHPo4 didn't cause the same abnormalities)


The Merck Manual (Calcium)
Excessive calcium intake in broiler chicks results in urolithiasis and visceral gout (hyperuricemia) with urate deposits on the abdominal viscera and in the joints. Tetanic convulsions can also be seen in chicks consuming excess calcium. Calcium levels >2% will induce these lesions in broilers. Feeding calcium in excess of 3% before the onset of egg production will induce the same lesions in egg-type or meat-type pullets.


More Merck
A condition known as hypocalcemia, or calcium tetany (paralysis), has been seen in modern or high-yielding broiler breeder hens. This syndrome is characterized by an acute and sudden onset, usually in flocks with good hen/day production. Signs such as panting, spread wings, and prostration may be seen in the early morning hours preceding paralysis and death by asphyxia. Hens may be down in the scratch, unable to rise. They become paralyzed and are the object of male aggression (often misdiagnosed as male kills).


Another Study (Comparing High Protein, High Calcium, and HCHP Diets)
Typical visceral gout was induced by the HCHP diet. The HCHP and HC diet caused severe kidney damage. It is concluded that growing layer birds should not be fed on layer rations. Also notes higher urates and nitrogen levels in high protein diets, another fact not in serious dispute.


Another Study re High Calcium in layers
The HC diet caused watery excreta in pullets. The pullets raised on the HC diet had significantly higher blood pH, bicarbonate, base excess, and significantly lower blood partial pressure of oxygen, partial pressure of carbon dioxide, and oxygen saturation than the pullets raised on the control diet. Phosphorus and potassium decreased; meanwhile, calcium increased in the HC group as compared with the control group.


Study re: use of liquid Methionine to reduce liver damage in high calcium feeds.
The unsupplemented HC diet caused a significant reduction in kidney mass and a significant increase in the incidence of gross kidney damage and urolithiasis in pullets necropsied at 22 wk of age. [...] When compared with hens reared on the NC diet, rearing hens on the HC, HC3A, HC3DL, HC6A, or HC6DL diets did not consistently affect hen-day egg production, egg mass, eggshell mass, percentage eggshell, or bone mineralization.
(not really useful study for backyard owners. The local farm store may stock CORID, but i've never seen a bottle of Methionine on the shelf...)


I can do this all day long.
...or you can trust Facebook.

 

[22ChickenNuggets]

All Flock/Flock raiser oyster shell on the side. They will, eventually eat it.

Unless you don't plan to keep the Roo. The issue with the feed isn't the protein, its the excess calcium, which the Roo can't process and can't excrete easily. Your Polish will have the same potential problems as the Roo, just slower to show, because the Polish do, occasionally, lay an egg.

Too much calcium can be as bad as too little
When chicks were fed excessive CaCo3, some of them manifested the toes and legs bent in an abnormal direction and final inability to walk in proportion to the dose of calcium.
(Study goes on to compare effects of CaCo3 [Calcium Carbonate] with CaHPo4 [DiCalcium Phosphate] tl;dr - CaHPo4 didn't cause the same abnormalities)


The Merck Manual (Calcium)
Excessive calcium intake in broiler chicks results in urolithiasis and visceral gout (hyperuricemia) with urate deposits on the abdominal viscera and in the joints. Tetanic convulsions can also be seen in chicks consuming excess calcium. Calcium levels >2% will induce these lesions in broilers. Feeding calcium in excess of 3% before the onset of egg production will induce the same lesions in egg-type or meat-type pullets.


More Merck
A condition known as hypocalcemia, or calcium tetany (paralysis), has been seen in modern or high-yielding broiler breeder hens. This syndrome is characterized by an acute and sudden onset, usually in flocks with good hen/day production. Signs such as panting, spread wings, and prostration may be seen in the early morning hours preceding paralysis and death by asphyxia. Hens may be down in the scratch, unable to rise. They become paralyzed and are the object of male aggression (often misdiagnosed as male kills).


Another Study (Comparing High Protein, High Calcium, and HCHP Diets)
Typical visceral gout was induced by the HCHP diet. The HCHP and HC diet caused severe kidney damage. It is concluded that growing layer birds should not be fed on layer rations. Also notes higher urates and nitrogen levels in high protein diets, another fact not in serious dispute.


Another Study re High Calcium in layers
The HC diet caused watery excreta in pullets. The pullets raised on the HC diet had significantly higher blood pH, bicarbonate, base excess, and significantly lower blood partial pressure of oxygen, partial pressure of carbon dioxide, and oxygen saturation than the pullets raised on the control diet. Phosphorus and potassium decreased; meanwhile, calcium increased in the HC group as compared with the control group.


Study re: use of liquid Methionine to reduce liver damage in high calcium feeds.
The unsupplemented HC diet caused a significant reduction in kidney mass and a significant increase in the incidence of gross kidney damage and urolithiasis in pullets necropsied at 22 wk of age. [...] When compared with hens reared on the NC diet, rearing hens on the HC, HC3A, HC3DL, HC6A, or HC6DL diets did not consistently affect hen-day egg production, egg mass, eggshell mass, percentage eggshell, or bone mineralization.
(not really useful study for backyard owners. The local farm store may stock CORID, but i've never seen a bottle of Methionine on the shelf...)


I can do this all day long.
...or you can trust Facebook.

And this is why I asked the question

 

[22ChickenNuggets]

I don’t. I live in the northwoods bum eff Egypt and all I have is a TSC

 

[U_Stormcrow]

And this is why I asked the question

In that case, happy to be of use. Apologies for tone, I've been on FB trying to correct an impression getting a lot of traction with my friends. Mostly w/o effect. Its a "feelings over facts" thing, and humans have a tendency to dig in when their preconceptions are challenged. (I can cite Studies for that, too!)

 

[Brooks_]

I don’t. I live in the northwoods bum eff Egypt and all I have is a TSC

Then "I" would stick with Purina flock raiser, Nutrena all flock, or a starter/grower of choice with oyster shell on the side. Maybe add egg shell. In time, they will eat proper amounts.

 

[22ChickenNuggets]

In that case, happy to be of use. Apologies for tone, I've been on FB trying to correct an impression getting a lot of traction with my friends. Mostly w/o effect. Its a "feelings over facts" thing, and humans have a tendency to dig in when their preconceptions are challenged. (I can cite Studies for that, too!)

I’ve talked to my husband, and decided to give Nutrena all flock a try. I DuMor currently. If at any point the one girl having issues goes back to doing the same thing, then I guess she’ll get some special treatment, maybe I’ll feed her alone with eggshell to keep her calcium where it needs to be. It could of been a glitch with her as well, she was my first layer at 16 weeks (red sexlink) and maybe her body was just catching up. She seems to be doing well now. She was laying soft shell eggs for about 4 days, and even lying 2 within hours of each other. My polish are my babies. Which is why I asked the question, the Roo.. I don’t know if he’s staying. He’s a big boy compared to the rest of my flock. (Buff Cochin)

 

[U_Stormcrow]

I’ve talked to my husband, and decided to give Nutrena all flock a try. I DuMor currently. If at any point the one girl having issues goes back to doing the same thing, then I guess she’ll get some special treatment, maybe I’ll feed her alone with eggshell to keep her calcium where it needs to be. It could of been a glitch with her as well, she was my first layer at 16 weeks (red sexlink) and maybe her body was just catching up. She seems to be doing well now. She was laying soft shell eggs for about 4 days, and even lying 2 within hours of each other. My polish are my babies. Which is why I asked the question, the Roo.. I don’t know if he’s staying. He’s a big boy compared to the rest of my flock. (Buff Cochin)

Two eggs in a single day virtually guarantees one will be soft. Sex Links are famed for reproductive problems, often terminal but typically presenting at age 3, sometimes sooner, sometimes later, but late 2 early 3 is the usual quoted range.

I throw all my empty egg shells back to the flock - and soft shells I crack while cleaning, or just badly fumble too. I don't go to the trouble of drying and crushing (though there are good reasons for both, and several acceptable methods of drying) - I just throw 'em as high in the air as I can, and let them explode on impact. The birds take it from there.

and "big" birds can still successfully mount small hens, w/o incident. CornishX have trouble, but they are both really big, and lack dexterity. I wouldn't necessarily exclude a roo from consideration just cause he's large.

OTOH, I don't plan to keep my birds past first adult molt, which isn't the typical backyard management period for turning over birds. Do what works best for you.

 

[22ChickenNuggets]

Two eggs in a single day virtually guarantees one will be soft. Sex Links are famed for reproductive problems, often terminal but typically presenting at age 3, sometimes sooner, sometimes later, but late 2 early 3 is the usual quoted range.

I throw all my empty egg shells back to the flock - and soft shells I crack while cleaning, or just badly fumble too. I don't go to the trouble of drying and crushing (though there are good reasons for both, and several acceptable methods of drying) - I just throw 'em as high in the air as I can, and let them explode on impact. The birds take it from there.

and "big" birds can still successfully mount small hens, w/o incident. CornishX have trouble, but they are both really big, and lack dexterity. I wouldn't necessarily exclude a roo from consideration just cause he's large.

OTOH, I don't plan to keep my birds past first adult molt, which isn't the typical backyard management period for turning over birds. Do what works best for you.

I mean I do love my Roo, he has potential to be a good one. But he’s young. And full of raging hormones. Maybe it’s me not mentally ready for that lol. I’m a new chicken owner. But I’m definitely going to switch, I read all your links. Thanks for the information!