For the MINIMALISTS - those who think less is more in chicken keeping - Please help

[AmeliaBedelia]

I was getting closer to not using sand after everyone's amazing suggestions - you just tipped me over the edge. No sand. Thank you for this story.

Yes. I decided against sand - sounded too much like having permanent litter in a litter box that I just scooped and scooped but never changed the litter . I think it works ok for dry climates and people who are fastidious, but not for me!

Deep litter/bedding works well for me. And I figure it is closer to nature - animals poop in the woods and leaves cover it up and it turns to compost. As long as your chickens have enough space, it doesn’t build up too much.

I actually have found my favorite material for the run is last fall’s dead leaves. I use pine shavings in the nesting boxes, where it is more of a “deep bedding” situation. I dump that into the run as needed where it turns to “deep litter” and decomposes with the leaves. Never had an issue with smell.

I would recommend considering your winters? I live in the south-south, so I actually have more of an aviary than a traditional coop/run (2 solid sides, 2 hardware cloth), and only have to tarp it for a couple nights per year. Where you are, you may want to integrate into your design and plan a way to screw on clear polycarbonate roofing panels to close up the bottom 2/3 of the run walls in winter. Depends on your breeds and typical winters, but an idea to consider. Also makes it more pleasant to hang out with them in the run in winter Ive heard.

Again, this is just what I’ve seen others do.

Oh - since your run is secure and the coop will be open to it 24/7, I would also add a roost out there. Some chickens like “camping” out there, and it creates space for them to spread out if someone is mad at someone else.

I also 2nd the recommendation for two pop doors, one on each end. We had a chicken corner another one once…it was awful. So now, no dead ends!

 

[AmeliaBedelia]

I was thinking the same thing. I will only fill the trash cans a little bit until we figure out our system. Thank you.

Some info I came across mentioned using a dark colored barrel and keeping it in the shade to prevent algae. I don't know if this is enough but at least it's a start. I wonder if there's something I could throw in the water to prevent algae and bacteria?

Vinegar is such a universal awesome thing to use. It has so many great purposes.

Where do you live?

I’m in Georgia. So all the hot and humid, teeny tiny baby winter. If you even count it as winter at all.

 

[littlecoopnextdoor]

Welcome to BYC! I also did a lot of reading before chickens and found this forum to be really helpful. I have a small flock (will be four in the spring, two currently) and I love the deep bedding for the coop. I use shredded newspapers and paper personally, mixed with a little bit of small wood chips from a local wood turner. It's great and never stinks. I turn the bedding over maybe once a week with a stick just under the roost since that's where they poop most. I have deep litter in my covered run, it's amazing. I started with just a thick layer of coarse woodchips last summer and now, after winter and weather and adding bags of dry leaves throughout the winter - combined with chicken's poop it's turned into the most fantastic rich compost. I will be shovelling it out early in April to start the run over again, and putting compost on nitrogen loving areas of my garden. My run is covered but does get some moisture from snow and rain blowing in, so it composted very well but never stayed wet. Having spare bags of leaves in storage was great for me to toss in there during inclement weather.

 

[AmeliaBedelia]

Hmm, I have some pine trees in my yard and we frequent the pine barrens. It can't be any type of pine needles, correct? I would love to use something we already have. It's so awesome that you've got them near you to utilize. Plus as my dear friend would often say "Free shit is the best shit."

I think cedar is the main one to avoid.

I just rake up my yard and use that as my “deep litter.” Mix of all different thinks - maple, hickory, oak, etc. If it were pine needles, I’d use those too .

As long as they have enough good food and aren’t too bored, chickens seem to avoid what is bad for them. Pretty sure our yard came with a couple toxic shrubs and they haven’t died. That said, “free ranging” in a 1/4 acre fenced yard is different than a teeny run.

 

[sdm111]

Oh boy. Does everyone move the feed inside at night? Do you have a suggestion?

I keep feed in a galvanized trash can sitting on 2 cinder blocks to keep it off the ground and I siliconed where the handle is attached to the top so rain doesn't get in and bent a couple corners of the top so it clicks on to keep the top from blowing off, outside

 

[Sueby]

You can always get covers for the pvc ports on your garbage can feeder & put those on at night instead of having to move it. I leave my port feeder out at night & do not have an issue with rodents getting to the feed. I did have an issue once when I left out a gravity feeder on a cinder block for a segregated sick chicken so they are around, I think the port feeder is just too slippery or too much work for them to bother with. Everyones critters are different so see what works best for you.

Now the bear that broke through the fence, he knocked over the port feeder but didn’t enjoy the feed, he wanted the birds instead so he didn’t really bother with it either.

 

[3KillerBs]

But am I basically doing the same thing whether it is deep bedding or deep litter - throwing down layers of straw? The variable is the linoleum surface (dry) vs the dirt or soil (moist)?

Yes, exactly. The main variable is the moisture content and thus whether the system is dry or actively composting.

How do I know if the run deep litter compost is balanced correctly?

One of the beauties of this system is that it doesn't have to be precise. If your coop/run don't stink then you're fine.

So they should be okay in the coop with the ventilation in the attached photo?

Probably.

You're looking at two things with ventilation, first, the replacement of warm, moist, ammonia-laden air with clean, fresh air -- which is why in my article you see vents at the top and bottom of the roof slope -- and, second, temperature control.

If your ventilation is sufficient to keep the temperature inside the coop equal to the temperature outside the coop then you're probably good on the fresh air part too.

The guideline is to have at least 1 square foot of permanent, 24/7/365 ventilation per adult, standard-sized hen. By experience I have found that in my climate if I don't have DEEP shade I have to have double or triple that to keep the coop under 100F on a 90F day.

You need to think about airFLOW, which is why I made the diagrams in the article I linked.

Put all the ventilation you can manage up right under the roof and you'll never have to worry about drafts. Have a look at my brooder, where I can have chicks who are less than week old outside in the winter with their heat source, 16 square feet of ventilation, but no drafts down on the floor where they are.

I'm just going to give one small opinion: don't leave feed out in the run overnight, you'll atrract rodents and a plethora of varmints.

I have been pondering the food and the rodents situation. Someone suggested the attached food setup - a large trash can with the food things at the bottom. Do you think I will have a problem with critters getting into the food/trash can?

Does everyone move the feed inside at night?

To comment on all these feed issues,

I do not move feed in and out and have not had a rodent problem in the chicken area. The hanging feeders I mentioned earlier limit the spillage that attracts rodents. I tried those spill-proof feeders and found my chickens unwilling to put their heads into a hole in order to eat.

If you are going to use that sort of feeder, be aware that rodents, including squirrels, can chew right through plastic. Also, depending on climate, it could be prone to condensation, which would cause the feed to get moldy -- very bad for the birds' health.

This is one of those areas where everyone's situation is going to be a bit different and thus each of us must determine what works for us in our situation rather than try to come up with a one-size-fits all solution.

Chickens are tough, adaptable livestock that are capable of doing well under many different management systems.

Surprisingly, there are a lot of people in NJ who have chickens so I would think I could find pine straw. I need to look into this. Another stupid question but is all straw pine or is straw made of different materials?

There are many, many different kinds of bedding that you could use, each with its advantages and disadvantages. Some are universally available, some are locally abundant but unavailable in other areas. Sometimes you get free bedding where the price makes up for any disadvantages it has.

Wood shavings -- universally available at a reasonable price, absorbent, somewhat resistant to packing/matting, light and easy to handle, slow to break down, may be dusty. Beware Cedar because Eastern Red Cedar contains aromatic oils that are highly irritating to the lungs and birds have delicate respiratory systems.

Straw (the stalks left over after harvesting grain) -- comes in bales or chopped and in different textures depending on which grain it was. Traditional animal bedding over millennia, absorbent, often inexpensive, composts readily, can be prone to packing/matting and thus may need to be fluffed up more often, may grow mold if it gets wet, hollow stems *might* (or might not), harbor parasites IF they are present (this is debatable). An intact bale with one string cut is an EXCELLENT boredom buster for a flock that has to be confined for some reason. Intact bales make excellent chicken-level windbreaks.

Sawdust -- fine and dusty. Fairly absorbent. Scoopable. May be available for free but be careful of the source to not get treated wood or Eastern Red Cedar. Easy to handle, composts faster than shavings but not as fast as straw.

Pelleted Horse Bedding -- Easy to handle, highly absorbent, may be expensive. Composts like sawdust because that's mostly what it is.

Wood Chips -- Coarse wood chips from a tree trimming service are generally considered the gold standard for controlling mud and odor in the run. Do not pack or mat. Highly absorbent. May be available free from a municipal waste site in variable quantities, may be available free by the dump truck load from a tree trimming service. Bagged mulch is similar but be sure to get it free of dyes and fertilizer and the coarse kind rather than the finer variety.

Hemp Bedding -- Trendy among the eco-conscious. Expensive. Scoopable. I have no direct experience with it.

Pine Straw (the long, soft needles from the Loblolly and/or Longleaf pines) -- Locally available in the US southeast. Inexpensive or free-for-the-raking. Not particularly absorbent. Highly resistant to packing/matting. Dries out on top quickly after even the heaviest rains. Very slow to break down.

Shredded Paper -- light, absorbent, may be free for the labor of doing the shredding. There's a long thread about it here: Using Shredded Paper for Coop Litter - As Good As Wood Chips?

Fall Leaves, Lawn Clippings, and other yard waste -- highly variable in availability and composition. May be excellent, may need extra management to keep it from packing and matting. Free. Uses material you would otherwise have to dispose of.

Ground Corn Cobs, Rice Hulls, etc. -- Locally available materials worth looking into if the price is right.

Hmm, I have some pine trees in my yard and we frequent the pine barrens. It can't be any type of pine needles, correct? I would love to use something we already have.

Mine are white pines. Grab a handful of the needles under your pines. If they are sharp and prickly they are the wrong thing. If they are all soft then bag ‘em up and give them to the chickens!

While the commercially available pine straw in the US Southeast comes from the Loblolly and Longleaf pines, any soft pine needle can be included in the "yard waste" category. I wouldn't use Spruce needles or anything like them simply because they're too sharp for me to handle comfortably.

Also, consider whether algae is an issue where you live. We never went with an automated/large water system because we regularly have to scrub out our containers.

An excellent point.

My climate and water source tends to grow algae so I don't use a giant system for that exact reason.

Also, with my large, mixed age, mixed sex flock it's better to have multiple water sources in case of flock bullying issues.

 

[KyCoop]

I use pellet horse bedding , processed into saw dust in my covered, 97% dry run. 1 buy maybe 4 or 5 bags a year in the fall. It's scoopable, rakeable and doable. I scoop and rake daily and I turn it about 3 times a year.

 

[RoyalChick]

Yes, exactly. The main variable is the moisture content and thus whether the system is dry or actively composting.



One of the beauties of this system is that it doesn't have to be precise. If your coop/run don't stink then you're fine.



Probably.

You're looking at two things with ventilation, first, the replacement of warm, moist, ammonia-laden air with clean, fresh air -- which is why in my article you see vents at the top and bottom of the roof slope -- and, second, temperature control.

If your ventilation is sufficient to keep the temperature inside the coop equal to the temperature outside the coop then you're probably good on the fresh air part too.

The guideline is to have at least 1 square foot of permanent, 24/7/365 ventilation per adult, standard-sized hen. By experience I have found that in my climate if I don't have DEEP shade I have to have double or triple that to keep the coop under 100F on a 90F day.

You need to think about airFLOW, which is why I made the diagrams in the article I linked.

Put all the ventilation you can manage up right under the roof and you'll never have to worry about drafts. Have a look at my brooder, where I can have chicks who are less than week old outside in the winter with their heat source, 16 square feet of ventilation, but no drafts down on the floor where they are.

To comment on all these feed issues,

I do not move feed in and out and have not had a rodent problem in the chicken area. The hanging feeders I mentioned earlier limit the spillage that attracts rodents. I tried those spill-proof feeders and found my chickens unwilling to put their heads into a hole in order to eat.

If you are going to use that sort of feeder, be aware that rodents, including squirrels, can chew right through plastic. Also, depending on climate, it could be prone to condensation, which would cause the feed to get moldy -- very bad for the birds' health.

This is one of those areas where everyone's situation is going to be a bit different and thus each of us must determine what works for us in our situation rather than try to come up with a one-size-fits all solution.

Chickens are tough, adaptable livestock that are capable of doing well under many different management systems.



There are many, many different kinds of bedding that you could use, each with its advantages and disadvantages. Some are universally available, some are locally abundant but unavailable in other areas. Sometimes you get free bedding where the price makes up for any disadvantages it has.

Wood shavings -- universally available at a reasonable price, absorbent, somewhat resistant to packing/matting, light and easy to handle, slow to break down, may be dusty. Beware Cedar because Eastern Red Cedar contains aromatic oils that are highly irritating to the lungs and birds have delicate respiratory systems.

Straw (the stalks left over after harvesting grain) -- comes in bales or chopped and in different textures depending on which grain it was. Traditional animal bedding over millennia, absorbent, often inexpensive, composts readily, can be prone to packing/matting and thus may need to be fluffed up more often, may grow mold if it gets wet, hollow stems *might* (or might not), harbor parasites IF they are present (this is debatable). An intact bale with one string cut is an EXCELLENT boredom buster for a flock that has to be confined for some reason. Intact bales make excellent chicken-level windbreaks.

Sawdust -- fine and dusty. Fairly absorbent. Scoopable. May be available for free but be careful of the source to not get treated wood or Eastern Red Cedar. Easy to handle, composts faster than shavings but not as fast as straw.

Pelleted Horse Bedding -- Easy to handle, highly absorbent, may be expensive. Composts like sawdust because that's mostly what it is.

Wood Chips -- Coarse wood chips from a tree trimming service are generally considered the gold standard for controlling mud and odor in the run. Do not pack or mat. Highly absorbent. May be available free from a municipal waste site in variable quantities, may be available free by the dump truck load from a tree trimming service. Bagged mulch is similar but be sure to get it free of dyes and fertilizer and the coarse kind rather than the finer variety.

Hemp Bedding -- Trendy among the eco-conscious. Expensive. Scoopable. I have no direct experience with it.

Pine Straw (the long, soft needles from the Loblolly and/or Longleaf pines) -- Locally available in the US southeast. Inexpensive or free-for-the-raking. Not particularly absorbent. Highly resistant to packing/matting. Dries out on top quickly after even the heaviest rains. Very slow to break down.

Shredded Paper -- light, absorbent, may be free for the labor of doing the shredding. There's a long thread about it here: Using Shredded Paper for Coop Litter - As Good As Wood Chips?

Fall Leaves, Lawn Clippings, and other yard waste -- highly variable in availability and composition. May be excellent, may need extra management to keep it from packing and matting. Free. Uses material you would otherwise have to dispose of.

Ground Corn Cobs, Rice Hulls, etc. -- Locally available materials worth looking into if the price is right.





While the commercially available pine straw in the US Southeast comes from the Loblolly and Longleaf pines, any soft pine needle can be included in the "yard waste" category. I wouldn't use Spruce needles or anything like them simply because they're too sharp for me to handle comfortably.



An excellent point.

My climate and water source tends to grow algae so I don't use a giant system for that exact reason.

Also, with my large, mixed age, mixed sex flock it's better to have multiple water sources in case of flock bullying issues.

Wonderful thorough and concise response and I fully agree with all of it!
I have always loved your article and the chicken cartoons and I have exactly what you recommend in terms of ventilation.
I have to chuckle though, because I now have two chickens that insist on roosting on the rafters holding up the roof - I think they are perfectly placed in the only draft possible which is between the soffit vents and the roof ridge vent and facing the gable end top triangle vents. Silly girls!
I think they are fine and it probably isn't really a big draft except when it is very windy - but I always picture them in the little skirts and scarves of your cartoons being blown about while the roost provided is lower down and nicely draft free.
Turns out you just cannot control for the chickens and they will do what they will do!

 

[Sally PB]

I think I started with one bale of pine shavings in the coop from Tractor Supply. It's compressed, so the size of the bale isn't what you'll end up with.

My run was part of our yard, so it was grass. For about a week. I would put a tote of raked up leaves in every few weeks when I first got chickens. They LOVED those. I got a bale of straw, and that was a great Thing To Stand On, then it began to fall apart, so it got spread all over.

Oh boy. Does everyone move the feed inside at night? Do you have a suggestion?

I have 3 feed stations. I use the black rubber bowls from TSC, and 2 of them are on cinder blocks, so they are about level with the chickens' backs. This keeps them mostly free of scratched in dirt/debris. The third on is in a Tupperware style food container that is about 12x15. With that one, I have a small dish of grit, and another dish of crushed egg shells.

I empty whatever is left into the third one, put the lid on it, and bring it inside at night. The main reservoir of feed is a metal trash can with a tight fitting lid, and it stays in the mudroom, where all the chicken gear is.

Do you have a lot of spillage?

No, almost none. Another thing I do to prevent waste: The fine bits in the bottom of the bowl that I bring inside at night get dumped into a metal bin, one of the ones you get full of popcorn during the holidays, with a tight fitting lid.

That stuff I use to make "mash snack," which is just the fine bits mixed with enough water to make a mash about the same thickness as oatmeal. The chickens LOVE it! (It's your regular feed, silly chickens!!) I can make that warm in the winter, cool in the summer, dress it up with kitchen scraps, or whatever. VERY little feed is wasted with my chickens.

The guideline is to have at least 1 square foot of permanent, 24/7/365 ventilation per adult, standard-sized hen.

Yes, this! When people say "open," however, they do mean that it's covered with hardware cloth to keep out predators.