Frizzle genes of this bird?

[perryalana21404]

Oops, I think I read the Sonoran answer wrong...

"Yes; dominant white blocks most eumelanin, but not pheomelanin."

So what this is saying is that dominant white blocks most BLACK, but not RED/GOLD?

To summarize my comprehension... the hen above obviously does NOT have dominant white. The pure white silky rooster father "probably" has dominant white even though I've read that white silkies typically have recessive white. The rooster could then potentially be carrying the following genes that would all look the same, pure white feathers:

I/I c/c
I/I C/c
I/I C/C
I/i c/c
I/i C/c
I/i C/C

Question is, does anybody know how the two whites interact with each other? If c/c (recessive white) is epistatic and in theory would mask the rusty red/gold of I/I and I/i (dominant white). Am I correct so far?
If so, I can remove the c/c's from the above list resulting in the options below:

I/I C/c
I/I C/C
I/i C/c
I/i C/C

Based upon Tim's statement in other posts ("These are the genes found in a silkie or at least all I can think of for now.") and that he included recessive white in the list, I am going to assume that there is a high probability that the rooster was carrying a recessive white gene and that the dominant white was probably an add-on fairly recently in his lineage (as compared to 'purebred' recessive white silkies. That give me 2 more eliminations from the list, the C/C's for this list:

I/I C/c
I/i C/c

An I/I rooster would throw 100% white I/i birds
An I/i rooster would throw 50% white birds which is exactly what is shown in the pics.

I i
----------
i Ii ii
i Ii ii

Add in the recessive white:

IC Ic iC ic
--------------------
iC IiCC IiCc iiCC iiCc Phenotype results are the same, 50% white and
iC IiCC IiCc iiCC iiCc 50% non-white. with half of each carrying the
iC IiCC IiCc iiCC iiCc recessive white gene.
iC IiCC IiCc iiCC iiCc


I think I am satisfied with the white constitution of the silkie father. Any major flaws with my comprehension?

Still have no clue what to do with the rusty red tint.

 

[Sonoran Silkies]

If the white came from a paint breeding, there is a good chance that it carries dominant white, and maybe recessive white. However, with the blush bleed through, I don't think it is hom. recessive white.

The two whites operate differently at a cellular level. Dom white prevents pigment from being places in the feather, and works fairly well on black pigment, but not so well on red pigment. Recessive white prevents the creation of all plumage pigment. You can think of it as if dominant white turns off the spigot that allows black pigment to get to the feathers. The black pigment spigot is leaky and allows a drop or so every now and then. On the other hand, recessive white is like the pigment reservoir that supplies the spigot is dry.

Photos of the adult birds might help/

 

[perryalana21404]

If the white came from a paint breeding, there is a good chance that it carries dominant white, and maybe recessive white. However, with the blush bleed through, I don't think it is hom. recessive white...




...Photos of the adult birds might help/

That analogy was INCREDIBLY helpful! Thank you Sonoran. After reviewing your post and my Punnett square work above, it still looks like I'm on the right track.

What does your "If the white came from a paint breeding," mean? And why does it bring Dom White into the mix? I do agree that Dom White certainly seems to be part of the equation in these birds.

And yes, pics of the adults would be very helpful. My camera phone is crappy, as you will see in the chick pics below! Will work to get adult pics posted.

Upon further analysis of our chicks I have discovered these two Dom White chicks. Each has stray black feathers, BUT... it is starting to look like they are showing frizzling on their shoulder feathers. What do any of you think?


This chick above has many leaky black feathers, therefore Dom White. All leakers are solid black. I could not get a decent picture of the shoulder frizzling. Is this the way hybrid frizzling shows up in young chicks?


This is the same white bird, still not a very good pic of the frizzling but the leaky black shows up better.


The bird on the left is the same as in above pics. The high contrast white chick on the right (above the buff chick in the corner) is the other frizzled dom white. It has ONE black barred feather! It too has the frizzled look.


This is the one black barred feather chick. It is NOT fluffing its feathers, they are at rest. Hopefully you can see the frizzling. Hopefully it IS frizzling and not just straggly chick feathers.


I am showing these pics because if they ARE indeed frizzled feathers it absolutely pins down breeding from within the sizzle hybrid group in discussion. And it also confirms that the white silkie granpappy rooster was indeed Dom White.

We can rule out 2 dom white leghorn hens in GP because we always mark the chicks from those eggs (the only white eggs.)

We also have a hand-me-down barnyard mix white hen of who we also mark the eggs. (Uniquely identifiable large cream eggs with speckles.)

That leaves the 2 white rusty sizzle roos or the 1 white rusty sizzle hen as the only possible Dom White parents. Dom White confirmed in sizzle hybrids.

We can narrow it down to one of the rusty white roos because the rusty white hen lays small (not bantam tiny,) off-white/tinted eggs. These two chicks are NOT from small tinted eggs.

We have 3 types of barred hens, 2 Barred Rocks, 1 Cuckoo Marans, and 1 Barred bantam hybrid (which can be ruled out because her eggs are also small,) and several Black Australorp hens.

Does my reasoning and elimination process sound solid?

I LOVE THIS STUFF!!

If I can get the adult photos posted and some more genetic markers narrowed down I'm hoping a Punnett Square will help identify some other chicks that might be coming from these sizzle hybrids.

For example, the adult rusty white roos are presumably hetero for dom white. Therefore the leaking in the 2 dom white chicks pictured indicate that barred and some type of solid black or near solid black chicks right now are probably from the sizzle hybrids, but with no visible identifiers. We also have some black and barred chicks that look like they might be frizzling too!

Did I mention I LOVE THIS STUFF??

Thank you for your help everybody!

 

[perryalana21404]

It just occurred to me that the frizzle aspect of this family group just made things very complicated!

What I have read so far is that the frizzle gene 'F' is incompletely dominant and that frizzle birds like the grandmother in the first photo are actually heterozygous, or 'F/f+', and beyond that the frizzling is affected by the recessive modifier gene 'mf'. From this book:
http://chla.library.cornell.edu/cgi...=frameset;view=image;seq=118;page=root;size=s

So it appears that the 'mf' gene is not unique to frizzling but is a gene carried in many barnyard chickens.
Those of you who know frizzle gene info, do I have the following correct?

F/F,Mf/Mf is the wiry feathered semi-lethal phenotype
F/f+,Mf/Mf is a regular appearing frizzle, like the grandmother in the first photo.
F/f+,Mf/mf is a partially frizzled bird, much like the newest Dom White chicks above.
F/f+,mf/mf is a fully modified frizzle bird that appears non-frizzled to the untrained eye.
f+/f+ is a non-frizzled bird regardless of the 'mf' gene.

Is this summary basically accurate?

If true...
How do my Dom White sizzle roos end up throwing partially frizzled chicks? Dom White is Dom White, right? It can be tracked visibly, right? It doesn't just pop up out of no where, right?

The sizzle roos need to have modifiers to hide the frizzling, so the grandmother bird in the photo AND the white silkie roo grandfather must both have had at least one 'mf' for my sizzle roos to be mf/mf.

Therefore the Dom White chicks with partial frizzle showing would be carrying Mf/mf...

I really need to get pics of the adult birds up here.

 

[perryalana21404]

Okay, using this chart from an old post by Tim, I do NOT see the modifier gene listed. Do Silkies typically carry the modifier gene?

https://www.backyardchickens.com/t/88682/silkie-genetics

(from that post pasted below...)

..."Fm fibromelanosis
id+ dermal melanin (sex linked) These three make black skin.
W+ white skin

h hookless for silkie feathers

Mb for muffs and beard (bearded variety)

P pea comb
R rose comb P and R form a walnut comb

Po polydactyly 5 toes

dw sex linked dwarfism Dwarfism can be caused by a number of
genes and there are two other alleles at the
Dw+ locus

Pti-1 and Pti-2 feathered feet ( silkies most likely have a different allele at one of the loci)

Cr crest

0+ for white egg shell color (no brown egg shell genes)

c recessive white Recessive white is an epistatic gene and can hide any color. Most recessive white birds are black under the white.

Bl/bl+ blue is an incompleley dominant gene that dilutes black to blue.

Bl/Bl produces a splash chicken or white with splashes of blue.

Most black birds are extended black ( E) because this genes needs the least amount of help from other genes to make a black bird. Some black birds are birchen or E^R. Birchen needs help from black extenders to make a black bird..."

If my understanding is correct,

with respect to frizzling

I have a non-frizzled looking F1 rooster from a frizzle and a silky, it is either non-frizzled (f+/f+) or a modified frizzle (F/f+,mf/mf). Correct?
This same bird is throwing partially frizzled chicks which implies that the roo is indeed a heavily modified frizzle.

This also then implies that the mother frizzle AND the silky father both had a modifier gene (mf) to donate.

Question: Does it look like the mother frizzle bird in the first photo has modified frizzling? I would have guessed NO.
Question: Is it probable that the silky roo was carrying at least one modifier gene (mf)? Are silkies known to carry mf?

It seems like both of them would have been carrying the modifier for the genetics I am seeing to work out in a Punnett Square correctly. If not, I don't see how the grandbabies are partially frizzled. Am I missing something here?