FRIZZLEs MODIFYING GENE

[Henk69]

There also existed a breed named frizzled.
They were a long legged japanese bantam-like type of chicken.

 

[Huny]

Quote:
Actually from what I was reading in the American Bantam Standard (2006) Frizzles are not a breed.

QUOTE:
ORIGIN: England and United States. There is no Frizzle Breed, only frizzled versions of any breed. AMERICAN STATUS: Frizzled bantams are common and are shown mostly in the Cochin, Plymouth Rock, Japanese and Polish breeds.


To keep going... hope I don't get in trouble for typing all this out.

Frizzle bantams may be shown in any breed or variety set forth in this Standard and are to be judged for shape station and color pattern under the breed, type and variety shown.

No Frizzle bantams shall compete for awards under the various other breeds & bantam varieties. However, a Frizzle bantam may compete in any of the six classes provided under the rules of the American Bantams Association.

 

[Glenda L Heywood]

Sorry if I shook any one up
read KazJaps reply
she is a genetic person of chickens in Australia

But in the american bantam assn it has been for many years thisway
YES THEY CHANGED IT ALSO

types of frizzle
are cochin, rocks, japs, cornish etc
In the ABA they now have it where they put frizzled birds with their breed type
ie: cochins, rocks, cornish, japs etc
This to me is wrong but they do it
what it does is do away with frizzles being champion feather leg then going on to show champion
ie: as well as the other 6 classes of banntams
RCCL
AOV
Single Comb clean leg
Modern Games
OE and AGB
there is no frizzled ducks

The APA listed the frizzles in two types
Another important reply must study this:
KazJaps from Australia

here is a Frizzle modifying gene (mf) that alters the ___expression of Frizzling (F). This might explain Glenda’s results. Put these genes together in different combinations & you’ll get various expressions of frizzling (or no frizzling). A bird may appear not to be frizzled, but may actually have the frizzle modifying gene masking ___expression (heterozygous for frizzling & homozygous for frizzle modifier: Ff+ mfmf). So the phenotype (how a bird looks) is non-frizzled, but genetically they have the frizzle gene. Glenda puts it nicely, “Smooth Frizzle”. The bird actually has one dose of the frizzle gene. Therefore offspring of 2 seemingly normal-feathered birds may produce a Frizzle (by the modifying gene becoming heterozygous or the frizzle gene becoming homozygous).

So, there are 5 main phenotypes (how a bird looks)
1: normal feathering (f+f+ Mf+Mf+ or f+f+ mfmf)
2: smooths, as Glenda calls them (Ff+ mfmf)
3: exhibition frizzles (Ff+ Mf+Mf+)
4: frizzled, less woolly than extreme (FF mfmf)
5: extreme frizzling (FF Mf+Mf+)

f+ = non-frizzled gene (wild type)
F = frizzle gene (incomplete dominant)

mf = modifying frizzle gene (recessive)
Mf+ = non-modifying frizzle gene (wild type)

FF = homozygous frizzle (2 doses of the frizzle gene)
Ff+ = heterozygous frizzle (1 dose of the frizzle gene)

mfmf = homozygous modifying frizzle (2 doses of the modifying frizzle gene)

* The modifying gene needs two copies (homozygous) for ___expression, plus the frizzle gene. The frizzle gene needs at least one copy for ___expression, plus not homozygous for modifying genes (if heterozygous for frizzling Ff+).

So, as Glenda explained, if you breed two smoothies together (Ff+ mfmf X Ff+ mfmf), there is still the possibility of getting frizzled birds (FF mfmf), about 25%. Also breeding a smoothie (Ff+ mfmf) with a normal feathered bird (wild type f+f+ Mf+Mf+) will produce frizzle (Ff+ Mf+mf), & so on ……

The frizzle modifying gene apparently is quite common in non-frizzled birds.
---------------------------
Well, that’s the theory anyway. This thread is a perfect example why I like to listen to people who have bred birds for decades. It is not very common for poultry geneticists to have identified a modifying gene sch as this.

My Reply

IHave taken off the first part so I can put this on now. I will post the modifying gene article by KasJap
she is from
Australia
to show what I mean by "Smooths"
they are regular feathered but DO carry the frizzle genes
and if you mate your line of frizzles for 5 years
you then can breed two "smooths" from both frizzle back grounds
frizzle to smooth hens is the way I did it
then maw two smooths they will throw a percentage of frizzles Read Kaz Japs Modifying gene
I have been breeding frizzles since 1978
I help hekp make the National Frizzle Club which went all over the world.

(1 yes a frizzle to a non frizzle will make a percentage of F-1 frizzles out of 100 probably about 25 I would say
(2 but when breeding the F-1 to the parent you will increase to 50% frizzles

(3 now what to do with the smooths ( frizzles out of frizzles but with smooth no frizzle look) After say 3-5 yrs of breeding the smooths back to a frizzle parent yes you will get some frizzles out of smooth to smooth

But the frizzle has to be strong in the smooths after that many yrs it should be there. Smooths are to be non frizzle gene BUT if one keeps breeding nothing but frizzle to smooths can any one tell me why there isn't some frizzle genetics there.

I bred them several decades so know the genetics can be there.

(4 Smooths are a nice bird that has been bred out of frizzle breeding not from a non frizzle to a frizzle will not work yet. It has to have frizzle background in several generations

You can't keep adding non frizzled birds back as that only cuts the percentages of frizzles coming from 100 offspring.

So after the first yr do not use the regular feathered bird (that doesn't have any frizzle back ground) but use the smooths out of the frizzle breeding back on the frizzle parent

also use the frizzle F-1 and F-2 and F-3 offspring back on the frizzle parent and then do not use the frizzle to frizzle any more.

the tightly curled frizzle will not get enough feather folicles to make enough feathers also.

genrtally will molt in with very few feasther folicles, and have to be discarded.

the use of frizzle to frizzle makes one automatically kill 1/4 of the offspring from a setting of these eggs.

so why feed and have to kill any as all you have to do is take and use smooths to frizzle and get 1/2 and 1/2 in offspring.

Now if I was advisding any one to get a genetic book I prefer Hutts book that is on line It has a some what lay mans terms in it. it has the basic talk for genetics. Enter on http://www.google.com


F.B.Hutt's genetic book is less expensive when buying. It is under $50.00
published by Robert Plamadon

Hs a good section on frizzling
\\
I let FRIZZLE TO FRIZZLE breed and when i hatched the chicks come threE times for first molt and when molting in the next season DID NOT HAVE FEATHER FOLICLES for feathers to grow into. That is what the modifying gene does.

FRIZZES

the fact that if one breeds the frizzles long enough to each other you breed the feather folicles
the holes in the skin for the frizzle feather to come out. I know I tried it before I learned how to breed good frizzles
Frizzles have a modifying Gene which allows their feathers to curl forward. I had a pullet that had not more than 20 feathers on her whole body so she was a waster. I figured out quick that why take the time to feed and house birds I was going to kill 1/4 of them in the end

so went to using only smooths out of frizzles and regular frizzles. that way I got 1/2 frizzles of good quality and 1/2 smooths to breed with.

I personally liked my frizzle males for breeding to the smooth females as the smooth females had better type than the smooth males. I never liked a long legged cochin male

And I showed my female frizzles as well as the frizzle males.

Just had them lose the places for feathers to grow into the body with. Folicle holes. but frizzles get a tight curled narrow wet looking feather if you breed frizzle to frizzle too long.

I think all these folks on this board ARE TRYING TO LEARN and do appreciate them asking before buying or hatching any frizzles will be glad to help any one I may not be the authority but have bred and raised thousands of frizzles in my time. Love the breed as frizzle is the breed and the varities ie: cochin, polish, rock, cornish, any other breed type are what you get when breeeding frizzles.


in the smooth out of frizzles when bred to frizzle after yrs it has some of the frizzle genes in it as both parents did any way what I proved at my house

but using a smooth on a regular feathered bird NO you won't get any frizzles out of them

They are missing the point here on breeding a so called smooth out of frizzles. waste of time unless it is bred back to a frizzle.

genetically as the books say it is not desposed to transmit the frizzle gene to a non frizzle related bird

I know a frizzle jap lady that proved the experiment last yr her 13 yrs of breeding frizzle to smooths
then she put a couple of frizzle smooths together and yes she did get frizzled offspring. a certain percentage not 100%. The percentage will be smaller than frizzle to smooth, but will be there if long line of frizzle breeding to smooths.

Glenda L Heywood

 

[nzpouter]

so in short.. you're hoping that an established frizzle line will be carrying the rec modifier mf/mf to reduce the effect of F/F..?

 

[Huny]

Newbie here, but something you said has had me questioning the entire week. Is a Sebastapol really a frizzle? If it had the frizzle gene, wouldn't ALL it's feathers be frizzling? On the geese, the head feather are not frizzling.

 

[Sonoran Silkies]

Hi Glenda--my understanding from the Standards Committee report in the ABA yearbook is that the reason they changed where frizzles are placed it so that they can achieve higher awards up to show champion. They are recognised for every breed; the APA made the same change a year or two earlier.

When a frizzle meet is held the frizzles are judged both in their breed and variety and also against all other frizzles.

 

[Glenda Heywoodo]

CORRECTION:

Today in the ABA and The APA standards,
they now refer to the Frizzle as variety.
the breed type is like cochin.

here is how I bred Frizzled Cochin

What Makes a Good Frizzle?

By Glenda L. Heywood



When you are in the market for a good breeder to make Frizzles out of do this:

BUY THE BEST STRAIGHT FEATHERED BIRD THAT IS THE BREED TYPE YOU ARE MAKING.

Then get one of the best Frizzles you can find. I use the Frizzle in the cock bird
and the straight feather in the hen. This will work with most any breed.

If you are making Cochins that is easy as you find the color variety and the best s
tock according to the qualities of the Cochin breed.

You will need good type on both of the birds you are using.

I never recommend that one uses Frizzle to Frizzle except maybe the first time,
if this is all that you can find for the original breeding stock.

Try and get two to three hens that are related to each other or get
three unrelated females and an unrelated male.

If this is the case use single matings and have three pens of unrelated eggs.

Putting the cock bird in each pen on the 2rd day for pen 1 and on the 3rd day
for pen 2 and on the 4th day for pen three.

Then as the week starts all over do the same.

The hens need the cock bird every 4th day.

When that first year is done you will need to toe punch the baby chicks
as they come from the hatcher, writing down what toe puch is from which pen

-- #1,#2,#3. Then when they are old enough to put color ring bands
them do so and you will always be able to recognize them on sight.

Make sure the bands are loose enough and not too tight for their legs
as to shut off the circulation.

[Editor's comment: Jiffy wing bands are even better as they don't slip off
so you have a lifetime record of the bird.]

Now when the 2nd year comes you will have several families to make from the matings.
Cock over pullets from #1 pen, or over pullets from #2 or #3 pens.

The hen with cockerels from #1 pen to pullets of #2 pen and on
thru the amount of offspring you have from pens #1,#2,#3,
each mated to a cockerel or pullet from other pen mateings.

As long as you do this there will be no need to introduce new blood lines for many years.

Keep the listings of the pen matings in a book to see what you mated to what in what year

. Each mating has different toe punches.

Now, if you are making Rock Frizzles or Polish Frizzles or Jap Frizzles

Take a good Frizzle cock of the breed and mate it to a good smooth female

If you can't find the clean-legged single comb variety you are making,

you may have to start with a hen or cock from another breed,
say Cochin Frizzle cock to a Rock hen

You will only use the Cochin Frizzle one year. You will have to keep a good
cock out of the cross and mate it back to the Rock hen.

The reason being is that the Cochin is feather-legged.

This trait needs to be recessive and will be if used only once.
If used more than one year it will become dominent and you
will pull stubs for the rest of the time breeding,

if you are to show these birds. Stubs are a disqualification and you don't want that.
Always look for stubs in your clean-legged birds, when showing them.

This trait pops up every so many years. Many feather-legged birds were used
making Frizzles.

Also the body type of the Cochin & Rock are not the same.

Buy a good ABA Standard or APA Standard if you don't have one.

The continuation of Frizzle breeding is exciting as the goal is to have
head feathers as heavy as you can and the little Cochin Frizzle look like a "Mum flower" when finished

The neck should show a good quantity of wide curled feathers towards the head.

Also the body of the bird needs good heavy dense feathering with wide width.
If too narrow, the bird's feathers will appear to be wispy and thin.

Thus, the reason for not breeding Frizzle to Frizzle:
It causes the bird to have less feather follicles and thus will cause the
bird to come out with a dozen feathers and be bald over the body
and intolerant of the sun or the cold weather.

Curlys are a no-no in the Frizzle breeding.

Frizzle breeding is simple: use the smooth half-Frizzle pullets
that come out each year.

Use a good male Frizzle on these smooth half-Frizzle females
and you have the battle won, as far as it goes for keeping good curl
on the head feathers and the body feathers.

When breeding the single comb Rock, or Jap Frizzles it is simple:
use this same method, using the half-Frizzle smooth females with a good Frizzle male.

Show or sell the Frizzle birds not needed in the matings of the next year.
Don't let those half-Frizzle females go.
I am not a lover of the cock bird being the smooth.

It never worked as well in my over 2 decades of breeding them.
I find the male is the best Frizzle and the best type needs to be seen in the hens.

. The male line is of importance as the male throws good fertility and the female
makes the color and type permanent in the breeding of chickens.

The male has to come from a good typed bird line also.

But your females make the breeding possible.
The short-backed females mated to a true typed male
will always throw the right length of back on the cockerels for breeding or showing.

Long-backed females make long-backed males and will thus
stretch the breed type out too far and soon you have many birds not worth keeping.

Watch what good typy females in the breeding can do for you..

 

[Glenda Heywoodo]

Hi Glenda--my understanding from the Standards Committee report in the ABA yearbook is that the reason they changed where frizzles are placed it so that they can achieve higher awards up to show champion. They are recognised for every breed; the APA made the same change a year or two earlier.

When a frizzle meet is held the frizzles are judged both in their breed and variety and also against all other frizzles.

She posted 2009

I am posting 3-2017
WELL ACTUALLY HERE IS HOW IT GOES.
The frizzle is put in a row
(1) with breed type
2) what ever color it is

(3) then it has to win is color type frizzle BV or RV.
(4) and then can win the breed type class also. BB or RB.

(5-A) they do not have a best frizzle any more:
(5-B) That used to be all a frizzle could win.

(6) Has to be Best frizzle Breed type
(7) then has to be BB or RB of breed type.

(8) It used to be it won BV or RV in frizzle but no more
(9) that is why they made frizzle a variety of the breed type.