Game rooster behavior and fighting

[sdm111]

Oh and it's gamefowl not gamebird for the bazzionth time

 

[Tankueray]

What the few of you guys don’t realize is @sdm111 me and a few others have been correcting and helping people for quite a few years. Trying hard to prevent the know it all’s from walking outside to a complete and utter sh*tshow with dead birds everywhere.
When this happens these people are all ears. The truth is most people won’t listen and will end up learning the hard way. I try to help anyone that I can by preventing these mistakes but lose interest real quick when someone is just trying to *win* a forum debate.

It's nice to see that there's an intelligent and thoughtful human being under that gruff persona. Good to meet you sir, and thank you.

That would all depend on the definition of gamefowl or “birds used, bred or otherwise kept for fighting purposes” tough to prove based on ownership since they’ve been bred for so long with many other breeds added and removed in the process. They’d have to set a genetic percentage or something similar. This would be costly and ineffective.

I agree, they should, but that's not how legislators roll. The more broad a rule or definition is, the more discretion they have for interpreting it, and anyone who wants to challenge it has to go to court. For situations where there might be an industry or lobby that would be opposed to such a broad interpretation, a definition is given, but then later there's usually a catchall put in, something along the lines of "or as determined at the discretion of the director or a representative of the director" (which means the investigator).

Just remember what they did to Tommy Carrano.
https://www.justice.gov/usao-sdny/p...amefowl-breeders-association-convicted-animal
https://gamefowlpreservation.com/about/

I'm trying to put these in chronological order. Notice how the information is inconsistent, not sure if that's purposeful. (I would like to point out that they're all full of it when they say that the animals have no food or water. They are allowed gel hydration, just no free flowing liquid, and it's actually in Postal rules that they can't be shipped without food or water except for live chicks, and only if they can make it within the 72 hour window that they can survive without nourishment.)

Background on Puerto Rico:
https://www.nytimes.com/2019/11/09/us/puerto-rico-cockfighting-ban.html

Intro and story of the changes to the law (Google says it was published Jan. 7, 2020):
https://animalwellnessaction.org/ne...ld-from-the-u-s-mainland-to-guam#.YeHW3_7MLcs (I like their own admission of "synthesizing the data...") This one sort of confirms what I was saying the other day, the point being that if anyone knows anyone who's been shipping, they're at least on this organization's "list", and it's a lot easier to do a raid party on a list that has been handed to an agency wrapped in a bow than it is to task staff and resources with all that investigation time to come up with a new list. It's likely that USDA, USPS, and the FBI would be involved in such an operation, potentially with the individual State Animal Health agencies, if they're invited. If they're feeling really frisky, they might bring ATF and DEA along too, because you know, if someone's doing one thing that's illegal, everything they're doing must be illegal.

And wow, check out this article if you want to see bias intended to rowse the public. Jeffrey Bezos? Come on. Poor guy. </sarcasm> https://chicago.suntimes.com/column...rep-mike-quigley-united-states-postal-service

https://www.casino.org/news/usps-told-to-crack-down-on-mail-order-battle-roosters/
This seems to be more updated, apparently the 2018 farm bill ban was re-affirmed in a separate action as an amendment to the Animal Welfare Act in late 2020? That's kind of odd in my experience, I'll have to research it when I get some time. (There's always been some controversy that the AWA mentions birds, but doesn't prescribe any care standards for them. USDA-APHIS took public comment not long ago on adding standards for birds, but I don't remember where that's currently at. Maybe that's what precipitated it. )

I'm assuming they haven't prepared the USPS strategy plan yet, but I did find a similar one for drugs: https://www.uspis.gov/wp-content/up...licit-Drugs-in-the-Mail-Strategy-Document.pdf

Obviously drugs are illegal, chickens are not. In my experience with the USPS field investigators (the ones that carry guns that you never want to meet), they're not going to have the required evidence of a criminal violation to act upon - so my guess is that regular USPS is going to start reporting all of the data concerning the shipments to the other authorities, let them investigate, and if charges are filed, then USPS criminal violations can be cited. In their plan, they'll likely start requiring that all egg and live animal shipments are individually submitted in person and that person provides ID (as opposed to bulk hatchery batch shipping) - this will take significantly more time that the day-old chicks will lose; shipments include the VS-93 form attached to the outside of the box like they're already supposed to; and put most of the burden (or lay the blame) on the originating post office to run through the checklists like they're already supposed to, to ensure that a shipping hold somewhere along the way doesn't result in dead animals because they get diverted as suspicious. In other words, there's not much USPS can do without other agencies, but they have to come up with something, and it'll create a mess for both them and chicken people. They're not the agency that should be tasked with this, especially since they don't have the resources. I'm sure they'll mention that, and then USDA-APHIS will become the lead investigative agency.
OR
What they can do is make shipping eggs and lives a paperwork nightmare, raise the prices, and create more specific container and timeline standards. That's possible either way.

 

[JadeFarms]

It's nice to see that there's an intelligent and thoughtful human being under that gruff persona. Good to meet you sir, and thank you.


I agree, they should, but that's not how legislators roll. The more broad a rule or definition is, the more discretion they have for interpreting it, and anyone who wants to challenge it has to go to court. For situations where there might be an industry or lobby that would be opposed to such a broad interpretation, a definition is given, but then later there's usually a catchall put in, something along the lines of "or as determined at the discretion of the director or a representative of the director" (which means the investigator).

Just remember what they did to Tommy Carrano.
https://www.justice.gov/usao-sdny/p...amefowl-breeders-association-convicted-animal
https://gamefowlpreservation.com/about/

I'm trying to put these in chronological order. Notice how the information is inconsistent, not sure if that's purposeful. (I would like to point out that they're all full of it when they say that the animals have no food or water. They are allowed gel hydration, just no free flowing liquid, and it's actually in Postal rules that they can't be shipped without food or water except for live chicks, and only if they can make it within the 72 hour window that they can survive without nourishment.)

Background on Puerto Rico:
https://www.nytimes.com/2019/11/09/us/puerto-rico-cockfighting-ban.html

Intro and story of the changes to the law (Google says it was published Jan. 7, 2020):
https://animalwellnessaction.org/ne...ld-from-the-u-s-mainland-to-guam#.YeHW3_7MLcs (I like their own admission of "synthesizing the data...") This one sort of confirms what I was saying the other day, the point being that if anyone knows anyone who's been shipping, they're at least on this organization's "list", and it's a lot easier to do a raid party on a list that has been handed to an agency wrapped in a bow than it is to task staff and resources with all that investigation time to come up with a new list. It's likely that USDA, USPS, and the FBI would be involved in such an operation, potentially with the individual State Animal Health agencies, if they're invited. If they're feeling really frisky, they might bring ATF and DEA along too, because you know, if someone's doing one thing that's illegal, everything they're doing must be illegal.

And wow, check out this article if you want to see bias intended to rowse the public. Jeffrey Bezos? Come on. Poor guy. </sarcasm> https://chicago.suntimes.com/column...rep-mike-quigley-united-states-postal-service

https://www.casino.org/news/usps-told-to-crack-down-on-mail-order-battle-roosters/
This seems to be more updated, apparently the 2018 farm bill ban was re-affirmed in a separate action as an amendment to the Animal Welfare Act in late 2020? That's kind of odd in my experience, I'll have to research it when I get some time. (There's always been some controversy that the AWA mentions birds, but doesn't prescribe any care standards for them. USDA-APHIS took public comment not long ago on adding standards for birds, but I don't remember where that's currently at. Maybe that's what precipitated it. )

I'm assuming they haven't prepared the USPS strategy plan yet, but I did find a similar one for drugs: https://www.uspis.gov/wp-content/up...licit-Drugs-in-the-Mail-Strategy-Document.pdf

Obviously drugs are illegal, chickens are not. In my experience with the USPS field investigators (the ones that carry guns that you never want to meet), they're not going to have the required evidence of a criminal violation to act upon - so my guess is that regular USPS is going to start reporting all of the data concerning the shipments to the other authorities, let them investigate, and if charges are filed, then USPS criminal violations can be cited. In their plan, they'll likely start requiring that all egg and live animal shipments are individually submitted in person and that person provides ID (as opposed to bulk hatchery batch shipping) - this will take significantly more time that the day-old chicks will lose; shipments include the VS-93 form attached to the outside of the box like they're already supposed to; and put most of the burden (or lay the blame) on the originating post office to run through the checklists like they're already supposed to, to ensure that a shipping hold somewhere along the way doesn't result in dead animals because they get diverted as suspicious. In other words, there's not much USPS can do without other agencies, but they have to come up with something, and it'll create a mess for both them and chicken people. They're not the agency that should be tasked with this, especially since they don't have the resources. I'm sure they'll mention that, and then USDA-APHIS will become the lead investigative agency.
OR
What they can do is make shipping eggs and lives a paperwork nightmare, raise the prices, and create more specific container and timeline standards. That's possible either way.

Your long BS paragraphs and made up jobs mean absolutely nothing. If you don’t have experience, stop posting. Simple as that.

 

[Tankueray]

Your long BS paragraphs and made up jobs mean absolutely nothing. If you don’t have experience, stop posting. Simple as that.

What? I absolutely have experience in regulations, enforcing them, and being an investigator for the government, my 20 year anniversary is next month. Go fly a kite.

 

[shawluvsbirds]

It's nice to see that there's an intelligent and thoughtful human being under that gruff persona. Good to meet you sir, and thank you.


I agree, they should, but that's not how legislators roll. The more broad a rule or definition is, the more discretion they have for interpreting it, and anyone who wants to challenge it has to go to court. For situations where there might be an industry or lobby that would be opposed to such a broad interpretation, a definition is given, but then later there's usually a catchall put in, something along the lines of "or as determined at the discretion of the director or a representative of the director" (which means the investigator).

Just remember what they did to Tommy Carrano.
https://www.justice.gov/usao-sdny/p...amefowl-breeders-association-convicted-animal
https://gamefowlpreservation.com/about/

I'm trying to put these in chronological order. Notice how the information is inconsistent, not sure if that's purposeful. (I would like to point out that they're all full of it when they say that the animals have no food or water. They are allowed gel hydration, just no free flowing liquid, and it's actually in Postal rules that they can't be shipped without food or water except for live chicks, and only if they can make it within the 72 hour window that they can survive without nourishment.)

Background on Puerto Rico:
https://www.nytimes.com/2019/11/09/us/puerto-rico-cockfighting-ban.html

Intro and story of the changes to the law (Google says it was published Jan. 7, 2020):
https://animalwellnessaction.org/ne...ld-from-the-u-s-mainland-to-guam#.YeHW3_7MLcs (I like their own admission of "synthesizing the data...") This one sort of confirms what I was saying the other day, the point being that if anyone knows anyone who's been shipping, they're at least on this organization's "list", and it's a lot easier to do a raid party on a list that has been handed to an agency wrapped in a bow than it is to task staff and resources with all that investigation time to come up with a new list. It's likely that USDA, USPS, and the FBI would be involved in such an operation, potentially with the individual State Animal Health agencies, if they're invited. If they're feeling really frisky, they might bring ATF and DEA along too, because you know, if someone's doing one thing that's illegal, everything they're doing must be illegal.

And wow, check out this article if you want to see bias intended to rowse the public. Jeffrey Bezos? Come on. Poor guy. </sarcasm> https://chicago.suntimes.com/column...rep-mike-quigley-united-states-postal-service

https://www.casino.org/news/usps-told-to-crack-down-on-mail-order-battle-roosters/
This seems to be more updated, apparently the 2018 farm bill ban was re-affirmed in a separate action as an amendment to the Animal Welfare Act in late 2020? That's kind of odd in my experience, I'll have to research it when I get some time. (There's always been some controversy that the AWA mentions birds, but doesn't prescribe any care standards for them. USDA-APHIS took public comment not long ago on adding standards for birds, but I don't remember where that's currently at. Maybe that's what precipitated it. )

I'm assuming they haven't prepared the USPS strategy plan yet, but I did find a similar one for drugs: https://www.uspis.gov/wp-content/up...licit-Drugs-in-the-Mail-Strategy-Document.pdf

Obviously drugs are illegal, chickens are not. In my experience with the USPS field investigators (the ones that carry guns that you never want to meet), they're not going to have the required evidence of a criminal violation to act upon - so my guess is that regular USPS is going to start reporting all of the data concerning the shipments to the other authorities, let them investigate, and if charges are filed, then USPS criminal violations can be cited. In their plan, they'll likely start requiring that all egg and live animal shipments are individually submitted in person and that person provides ID (as opposed to bulk hatchery batch shipping) - this will take significantly more time that the day-old chicks will lose; shipments include the VS-93 form attached to the outside of the box like they're already supposed to; and put most of the burden (or lay the blame) on the originating post office to run through the checklists like they're already supposed to, to ensure that a shipping hold somewhere along the way doesn't result in dead animals because they get diverted as suspicious. In other words, there's not much USPS can do without other agencies, but they have to come up with something, and it'll create a mess for both them and chicken people. They're not the agency that should be tasked with this, especially since they don't have the resources. I'm sure they'll mention that, and then USDA-APHIS will become the lead investigative agency.
OR
What they can do is make shipping eggs and lives a paperwork nightmare, raise the prices, and create more specific container and timeline standards. That's possible either way.

This could be extremely enlightening but I'll never know my attention span is way too short to read it all.

 

[roosterhavoc]

It's nice to see that there's an intelligent and thoughtful human being under that gruff persona. Good to meet you sir, and thank you.


I agree, they should, but that's not how legislators roll. The more broad a rule or definition is, the more discretion they have for interpreting it, and anyone who wants to challenge it has to go to court. For situations where there might be an industry or lobby that would be opposed to such a broad interpretation, a definition is given, but then later there's usually a catchall put in, something along the lines of "or as determined at the discretion of the director or a representative of the director" (which means the investigator).

Just remember what they did to Tommy Carrano.
https://www.justice.gov/usao-sdny/p...amefowl-breeders-association-convicted-animal
https://gamefowlpreservation.com/about/

I'm trying to put these in chronological order. Notice how the information is inconsistent, not sure if that's purposeful. (I would like to point out that they're all full of it when they say that the animals have no food or water. They are allowed gel hydration, just no free flowing liquid, and it's actually in Postal rules that they can't be shipped without food or water except for live chicks, and only if they can make it within the 72 hour window that they can survive without nourishment.)

Background on Puerto Rico:
https://www.nytimes.com/2019/11/09/us/puerto-rico-cockfighting-ban.html

Intro and story of the changes to the law (Google says it was published Jan. 7, 2020):
https://animalwellnessaction.org/ne...ld-from-the-u-s-mainland-to-guam#.YeHW3_7MLcs (I like their own admission of "synthesizing the data...") This one sort of confirms what I was saying the other day, the point being that if anyone knows anyone who's been shipping, they're at least on this organization's "list", and it's a lot easier to do a raid party on a list that has been handed to an agency wrapped in a bow than it is to task staff and resources with all that investigation time to come up with a new list. It's likely that USDA, USPS, and the FBI would be involved in such an operation, potentially with the individual State Animal Health agencies, if they're invited. If they're feeling really frisky, they might bring ATF and DEA along too, because you know, if someone's doing one thing that's illegal, everything they're doing must be illegal.

And wow, check out this article if you want to see bias intended to rowse the public. Jeffrey Bezos? Come on. Poor guy. </sarcasm> https://chicago.suntimes.com/column...rep-mike-quigley-united-states-postal-service

https://www.casino.org/news/usps-told-to-crack-down-on-mail-order-battle-roosters/
This seems to be more updated, apparently the 2018 farm bill ban was re-affirmed in a separate action as an amendment to the Animal Welfare Act in late 2020? That's kind of odd in my experience, I'll have to research it when I get some time. (There's always been some controversy that the AWA mentions birds, but doesn't prescribe any care standards for them. USDA-APHIS took public comment not long ago on adding standards for birds, but I don't remember where that's currently at. Maybe that's what precipitated it. )

I'm assuming they haven't prepared the USPS strategy plan yet, but I did find a similar one for drugs: https://www.uspis.gov/wp-content/up...licit-Drugs-in-the-Mail-Strategy-Document.pdf

Obviously drugs are illegal, chickens are not. In my experience with the USPS field investigators (the ones that carry guns that you never want to meet), they're not going to have the required evidence of a criminal violation to act upon - so my guess is that regular USPS is going to start reporting all of the data concerning the shipments to the other authorities, let them investigate, and if charges are filed, then USPS criminal violations can be cited. In their plan, they'll likely start requiring that all egg and live animal shipments are individually submitted in person and that person provides ID (as opposed to bulk hatchery batch shipping) - this will take significantly more time that the day-old chicks will lose; shipments include the VS-93 form attached to the outside of the box like they're already supposed to; and put most of the burden (or lay the blame) on the originating post office to run through the checklists like they're already supposed to, to ensure that a shipping hold somewhere along the way doesn't result in dead animals because they get diverted as suspicious. In other words, there's not much USPS can do without other agencies, but they have to come up with something, and it'll create a mess for both them and chicken people. They're not the agency that should be tasked with this, especially since they don't have the resources. I'm sure they'll mention that, and then USDA-APHIS will become the lead investigative agency.
OR
What they can do is make shipping eggs and lives a paperwork nightmare, raise the prices, and create more specific container and timeline standards. That's possible either way.

I’m not sure what the point of this dissertation is but I’m unconcerned I have all the birds I need. Thank you for taking the time to type it all out and provide the links.

 

[roosterhavoc]

Your long BS paragraphs and made up jobs mean absolutely nothing. If you don’t have experience, stop posting. Simple as that.

My new best friend!

 

[Geena]

Anyone that verbose definitely works for the government. That's why all those bills are 2,500 pages long. I think they must get paid by the word.

* just funnin' with you Tank

 

[Tankueray]

I’m not sure what the point of this dissertation is but I’m unconcerned I have all the birds I need. Thank you for taking the time to type it all out and provide the links.

I thought you and anyone else, really, might be interested in the gears that are turning toward more government oversight. Right now, it only appears to be about birds used for illegal fighting. When animal welfare groups and the Ag industry get involved, it's amazing how wording can change that shuts out or pulls into regulation, the small breeder or individual. I didn't even realize how many things had happened in the last few years to build this foundation until I found a couple of those articles.

And I also thought the AWA admitting to the amount and what kind of evidence they gathered was pretty scary. We in government aren't allowed to operate like that. If the government doesn't take action on it, will they? What happens if they share that information with an animal rights group that is more "active" in their activism? I could give a few examples of the damage they can do from my experience in my first job out of college, but then I'd just get called a liar and trashed again. You're not the only one who gets discouraged when the inevitable sh*tstorm happens. Thanks for at least looking at it.

 

[Geena]

It's nice to see that there's an intelligent and thoughtful human being under that gruff persona. Good to meet you sir, and thank you.


I agree, they should, but that's not how legislators roll. The more broad a rule or definition is, the more discretion they have for interpreting it, and anyone who wants to challenge it has to go to court. For situations where there might be an industry or lobby that would be opposed to such a broad interpretation, a definition is given, but then later there's usually a catchall put in, something along the lines of "or as determined at the discretion of the director or a representative of the director" (which means the investigator).

Just remember what they did to Tommy Carrano.
https://www.justice.gov/usao-sdny/p...amefowl-breeders-association-convicted-animal
https://gamefowlpreservation.com/about/

I'm trying to put these in chronological order. Notice how the information is inconsistent, not sure if that's purposeful. (I would like to point out that they're all full of it when they say that the animals have no food or water. They are allowed gel hydration, just no free flowing liquid, and it's actually in Postal rules that they can't be shipped without food or water except for live chicks, and only if they can make it within the 72 hour window that they can survive without nourishment.)

Background on Puerto Rico:
https://www.nytimes.com/2019/11/09/us/puerto-rico-cockfighting-ban.html

Intro and story of the changes to the law (Google says it was published Jan. 7, 2020):
https://animalwellnessaction.org/ne...ld-from-the-u-s-mainland-to-guam#.YeHW3_7MLcs (I like their own admission of "synthesizing the data...") This one sort of confirms what I was saying the other day, the point being that if anyone knows anyone who's been shipping, they're at least on this organization's "list", and it's a lot easier to do a raid party on a list that has been handed to an agency wrapped in a bow than it is to task staff and resources with all that investigation time to come up with a new list. It's likely that USDA, USPS, and the FBI would be involved in such an operation, potentially with the individual State Animal Health agencies, if they're invited. If they're feeling really frisky, they might bring ATF and DEA along too, because you know, if someone's doing one thing that's illegal, everything they're doing must be illegal.

And wow, check out this article if you want to see bias intended to rowse the public. Jeffrey Bezos? Come on. Poor guy. </sarcasm> https://chicago.suntimes.com/column...rep-mike-quigley-united-states-postal-service

https://www.casino.org/news/usps-told-to-crack-down-on-mail-order-battle-roosters/
This seems to be more updated, apparently the 2018 farm bill ban was re-affirmed in a separate action as an amendment to the Animal Welfare Act in late 2020? That's kind of odd in my experience, I'll have to research it when I get some time. (There's always been some controversy that the AWA mentions birds, but doesn't prescribe any care standards for them. USDA-APHIS took public comment not long ago on adding standards for birds, but I don't remember where that's currently at. Maybe that's what precipitated it. )

I'm assuming they haven't prepared the USPS strategy plan yet, but I did find a similar one for drugs: https://www.uspis.gov/wp-content/up...licit-Drugs-in-the-Mail-Strategy-Document.pdf

Obviously drugs are illegal, chickens are not. In my experience with the USPS field investigators (the ones that carry guns that you never want to meet), they're not going to have the required evidence of a criminal violation to act upon - so my guess is that regular USPS is going to start reporting all of the data concerning the shipments to the other authorities, let them investigate, and if charges are filed, then USPS criminal violations can be cited. In their plan, they'll likely start requiring that all egg and live animal shipments are individually submitted in person and that person provides ID (as opposed to bulk hatchery batch shipping) - this will take significantly more time that the day-old chicks will lose; shipments include the VS-93 form attached to the outside of the box like they're already supposed to; and put most of the burden (or lay the blame) on the originating post office to run through the checklists like they're already supposed to, to ensure that a shipping hold somewhere along the way doesn't result in dead animals because they get diverted as suspicious. In other words, there's not much USPS can do without other agencies, but they have to come up with something, and it'll create a mess for both them and chicken people. They're not the agency that should be tasked with this, especially since they don't have the resources. I'm sure they'll mention that, and then USDA-APHIS will become the lead investigative agency.
OR
What they can do is make shipping eggs and lives a paperwork nightmare, raise the prices, and create more specific container and timeline standards. That's possible either way.

I actually did read your post and looked at some of the links. Not sure what you mean by "remember what they did to Tommy Carrano", all I see is he was apparently tried and convicted of cockfighting.

You do know that just because people own and/or breed gamefowl doesn't mean they are in any way involved in or approve of illegal activities, right?