- Jan 5, 2012
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I appreciate your enthusiasm but this is nothing new. They’ve been around for a couple thousand years and they’ll continue to exist for another couple.
Game rooster behavior and fighting
- Thread starter Nashv755
- Start date
Tankueray
Bird Nerd
Yes, absolutely. Tommy was falsely accused and railroaded.I actually did read your post and looked at some of the links. Not sure what you mean by "remember what they did to Tommy Carrano", all I see is he was apparently tried and convicted of cockfighting.
You do know that just because people own and/or breed gamefowl doesn't mean they are in any way involved in or approve of illegal activities, right?
Maybe this video will help.
I don't know the guy or the case or whether he's guilty or not. I was just pointing that out for anyone who may read this thread.
Last edited:
Lots to comment on. I’ll hit on a few points that interest me.
My observations may be useful to the extent my primary flock of junglefowl hybrids occupy a grey zone between gamefowl and non-game chickens. The actual genetic history of my flock is unknown. I received them as is and they are now what I’ve selected them to be and what they’ve selected themselves to be.
In a free range scenario I can keep only one mature brood cock at a time. The mature brood cock kills all other mature males that attempt to occupy the same territory. All attempts I’ve made to run multiple free range brood cocks have failed. I have not taught this to the birds. It is natural to them, with my brood cock and most subsequent birds all having been hatched and grown free range on my farm. They’ve never spent a day in their lives on a gamefowl tie cord or in any man-made conditioning regime. The territoriality and male on male aggression is built into them. The mature brood cock will tolerate young cockerels and for their part the cockerels (stags) don’t challenge the brood cock until they get to around a year old. It actually seems very natural. Its very much like what wild turkeys and whitetail deer do, animals that share the same habitat as my birds. The mature breeders fight to serious injury or death, ensuring the strongest males do most of the breeding, yet very young males representing the future of the species are mostly spared. So I have to disagree with a general notion that rooster aggression to the death is learned. I think its natural and genetic, and the only reason many domestic roosters don’t fight that hard is because its been selectively bred out of them.
I have raised some stags in pens and those that grow up in pens never learn to submit to the brood cock in a pecking order. Those stags immediately charge to their deaths when turned out to free range. They hit the brood cock like a car slamming into a brick wall and they get shattered. They never last a day, often they don’t last past first light. I think those young roosters that grow up without being beat around as chicks think they’re top rooster on an instinctual level so they immediately attack a foe they can’t yet beat. So that kind of reckless aggression is nurture over nature, but it becomes irrelevant after the roosters reach true maturity where in maturity both the free range birds that learned a pecking order and penned birds that never learned a pecking order are both in fact ready to be top dog.
What makes a chicken a true gamefowl is often debated even among gamefowl people. Some people define it as the raw aggression. Others define it as the willingness to always fight to the death once the fight starts no matter the pain or weapon used. Many gamefowl people within the community will tout their favored birds as being “true” gamefowl and the other guy’s as not being so, with the pit being the judge back when it was legal.
I’ve settled on the definition of “gamefowl” as a bird historically bred for pit use that retains a strong drive to fight to serious injury and death between two mature roosters. Beyond that, I think of the degree of aggression or pain tolerance above that basic definition speaks to the quality of the gamefowl more than its general status as a gamefowl.
If I was the OP, I would value a Liege rooster that is showing a shadow of its historical temperament. There’s nothing wrong with having one strong rooster ruling the flock. No need for multiple roosters within the same flock. I’d bet an aggressive Liege would still tolerate young cockerels like my birds do and therefore there would always be some replacement males in the flock should the brood cock be lost.
As an aside, bulldogs absolutely can be born with bloodlust without it being taught to them. I’ve raised bulldogs of various sub-breeds and lines for decades. I’ve had some real monsters. We have a tendency to excuse dog aggression as anything except it being born into the dog because we view dogs as innocent animals and it seems unfair that one may be born the dog equivalent of a serial killer. But that’s the cold, hard, reality of genetics. There’s no fairness or equality in the animal kingdom.
That some chickens and dogs can be born with natural aggression (which may or may not be enhanced by human selection) does zero to diminish their worth. The world is a better and more interesting place because there are both aggressive and docile chickens and dogs and aggression often goes hand in hand with resilience. Resilient chickens and dogs are very useful.
Finally, I think people ought to be able to do what they want with their chickens, for whatever that’s worth.
My observations may be useful to the extent my primary flock of junglefowl hybrids occupy a grey zone between gamefowl and non-game chickens. The actual genetic history of my flock is unknown. I received them as is and they are now what I’ve selected them to be and what they’ve selected themselves to be.
In a free range scenario I can keep only one mature brood cock at a time. The mature brood cock kills all other mature males that attempt to occupy the same territory. All attempts I’ve made to run multiple free range brood cocks have failed. I have not taught this to the birds. It is natural to them, with my brood cock and most subsequent birds all having been hatched and grown free range on my farm. They’ve never spent a day in their lives on a gamefowl tie cord or in any man-made conditioning regime. The territoriality and male on male aggression is built into them. The mature brood cock will tolerate young cockerels and for their part the cockerels (stags) don’t challenge the brood cock until they get to around a year old. It actually seems very natural. Its very much like what wild turkeys and whitetail deer do, animals that share the same habitat as my birds. The mature breeders fight to serious injury or death, ensuring the strongest males do most of the breeding, yet very young males representing the future of the species are mostly spared. So I have to disagree with a general notion that rooster aggression to the death is learned. I think its natural and genetic, and the only reason many domestic roosters don’t fight that hard is because its been selectively bred out of them.
I have raised some stags in pens and those that grow up in pens never learn to submit to the brood cock in a pecking order. Those stags immediately charge to their deaths when turned out to free range. They hit the brood cock like a car slamming into a brick wall and they get shattered. They never last a day, often they don’t last past first light. I think those young roosters that grow up without being beat around as chicks think they’re top rooster on an instinctual level so they immediately attack a foe they can’t yet beat. So that kind of reckless aggression is nurture over nature, but it becomes irrelevant after the roosters reach true maturity where in maturity both the free range birds that learned a pecking order and penned birds that never learned a pecking order are both in fact ready to be top dog.
What makes a chicken a true gamefowl is often debated even among gamefowl people. Some people define it as the raw aggression. Others define it as the willingness to always fight to the death once the fight starts no matter the pain or weapon used. Many gamefowl people within the community will tout their favored birds as being “true” gamefowl and the other guy’s as not being so, with the pit being the judge back when it was legal.
I’ve settled on the definition of “gamefowl” as a bird historically bred for pit use that retains a strong drive to fight to serious injury and death between two mature roosters. Beyond that, I think of the degree of aggression or pain tolerance above that basic definition speaks to the quality of the gamefowl more than its general status as a gamefowl.
If I was the OP, I would value a Liege rooster that is showing a shadow of its historical temperament. There’s nothing wrong with having one strong rooster ruling the flock. No need for multiple roosters within the same flock. I’d bet an aggressive Liege would still tolerate young cockerels like my birds do and therefore there would always be some replacement males in the flock should the brood cock be lost.
As an aside, bulldogs absolutely can be born with bloodlust without it being taught to them. I’ve raised bulldogs of various sub-breeds and lines for decades. I’ve had some real monsters. We have a tendency to excuse dog aggression as anything except it being born into the dog because we view dogs as innocent animals and it seems unfair that one may be born the dog equivalent of a serial killer. But that’s the cold, hard, reality of genetics. There’s no fairness or equality in the animal kingdom.
That some chickens and dogs can be born with natural aggression (which may or may not be enhanced by human selection) does zero to diminish their worth. The world is a better and more interesting place because there are both aggressive and docile chickens and dogs and aggression often goes hand in hand with resilience. Resilient chickens and dogs are very useful.
Finally, I think people ought to be able to do what they want with their chickens, for whatever that’s worth.
Tankueray
Bird Nerd
Did you make a YouTube video about your flock? If so, I've seen it and I thought your commentary was awesome.
- Jan 5, 2012
- 27,707
- 64,340
- 1,301
Oh boy 
Have at it folks!
Have at it folks!
Tankueray
Bird Nerd
I was being honest, I really did like the video and the narrator's comments about how everyone else's chickens were weak and would die because they weren't wild enough.Oh boy
Yep, that’s me.
One other observation I’ll add is that some of the free range stags, when they’re at the verge of obtaining their adult bright plumage and large red combs, will take on feminine traits after they get beat up by the brood cock and their colors both featherwise and on their face, as well as their comb size, become subdued until their 18 month molt, after which they almost overnight become masculine again and get killed. Its as if their bodies on a hormonal level submit to the brood cock and their masculine hormones flush away so as to not provoke the brood cock and it keeps them alive longer.
The relevance is that if my observation is correct, chickens have the ability to biologically cope with a strong aggression drive, which further supports the notion that fatal aggression between roosters is very natural to chickens.
Bigtom Turkey
Crowing
Wow, if I lived in FL I would kill for some of your stock.
You missed something, JadeFarms.
All *I* did was ask what was incorrect - I was told if I wanted to know I should go learn it elsewhere because it should be obvious, and that I was 'entitled' to ask someone who was representing themselves as being experienced to to share their reasoning.
I didn't say one person or another is incorrect, I asked 'what did person A say that Person B says was wrong'.
How are people who don't know supposed to learn if they can't ask?
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