Genetic Hackle Fowl Chat

[Dovemaiden]

Gt also affects the hackle, breast feathering snd length of the main wing feathers— but does not DIRECTLY effect the saddle!, which Reeder says appears to be controlled by a separate factor he named Gt^ Sd that appears to operate as an autosomal dominant.
When looking at saddle lengthening, Gt^Sd operating exactly the same way as the Gt gene, (with the homozygous showing more lengthening than the heterozygous.) To give an idea: normal saddle feathers are about 4 inches long. If you have the homozygous saddle gene, by itself, without the non-molting factor— you can expect up to 12 inches of saddle hackle to be expressed; with the heterozygous and again, non molting factors NOT present, you are looking at 6inches, approximately in length. And that’s valuable to know about these saddle feathers, how long they can be before you even start looking at adding the non molting gene. What is more important, is that this tells you Gt^Sd can be expressed EVEN IN THE ABSENCE of the Gt gene. That is what the Genetic Hackle Fowl breeders are more focused on — the Gt^Sd saddle hackle lengthening gene, not so much the tail. You have seen, I’m sure, photos of them holding birds with tremendously long saddle hackles, but a rather small tail. Dr. Tom Whiting is focusing on extreme length on the saddle hackle AND the neck hackle, for example.

I am not sure why there is such an antipathy to the Phoenix introduction, because, as you say, the feathering on the saddle indicates individuals carry Gt as well as the Gt^Sd alleles.
It may be that the webless trait is not as fully expressed in Phoenix — Whiting himself said when he overhauled his Genetic Hackle Fowl Program, he introduced no less than 50 purebred show type Silkies to overwhelm the genetics of his flock with the webless factor.
It might be Phoenix have more of a tendency to have twist of the rachis( stem) on a vise for fly tying, though this is merely speculation.
I would suspect that some Phoenix may not carry the mt ( non molting) gene as heavily as the Genetic Hackle Breeders would like. It’s a quantitative trait, it’s difficult to describe, and called an autosomal recessive, but it’s not straightforward. It’s two major effects are causing blood feathers to stay in what’s called “perpetual growth” which actually just means a Very Long Time.
Secondly, that mt alleged autosomal recessive allele delays molting. I say alleged because Mr. Reeder is not at all convinced that the two different effects are the result of one gene—he has seen it occur separately, which raises doubts.

 

[Dovemaiden]

I know people who have bred in the Phoenix and it has been beneficial to increase the density of feathering. I really like Phoenix, they are one of my favorite breeds. What Brian Reeder says in “ Form &Feathering of Domestic Fowl” is that for feather lengthening, the breeds to look to are Phoenix, Shokoku, Miniohiki, Sumatra, Yokohama & Onadagori. You are dealing with at least two genes, Gt( tail growth) & mt.
However, it’s not as straightforward as it seems, there are some other major genes and then modifiers involved.
Usually people just talk about those main two, Gt( tail growth, an autosomal dominant) and mt( non-molting gene that is an autosomal recessive). BOTH of these exhibit HEAVY modification & it gets conplicated pretty quickly with these.

When you said your Phoenix molts every year instead of every two years— that’s what we are coming back to, that non molting gene and how whether it is homozygous or heterozygous will be expressed in the frequency of the molt. The people with the Hackle fowl that want the super long feathers on the saddle ( Gt^Sd allele) also want the non molting factor present and producing as heavy an influence as possible on these birds. It doesn’t follow Mendelian ratios; it is quantitative with each selective breeding & there is pleitrophy involved, too.
But the nonmolting gene has a deleterious effect if not carefully monitored in your flock. Reeder cites instances of it being linked to a neurological condition that cause seizures in some birds and dramatically shortens their life. That is certainly not a desirable trait.

 

[Dovemaiden]

Also I can see the fly tie special working for some people. When I was trying to find flocks for two of my barred cochin males, I kept getting people asking of they could pay me more and have me harvest their necks and capes for flies

Yes, the fly tiers really like that barred coloration!

 

[Dovemaiden]

I only keep 1 pen and allow the 2 different "base colors" to interbreed. Some are wild-type (aka partridge or black breasted red) and some are extended black (EB). EB is dominant, so the color called grizzly in the trade (in the show world it would be called black barred or cuckoo) can carry the gene for wild-type.
I somewhat prefer the wild-type, called crele by poultry fanciers, but various other names in the feather trade. But I make an effort to keep both types in my pen. I have quite a few young ones of both types growing out. I had hoped to sell them, but the demand locally is pretty much zero.
There is a lot of color variations in these, which I think adds to their charm, everyone looks slightly different.

What I have seen in this area is that everyone wants the Cree( Crele) color and the barred gingers. Those are both spectacular colors.

 

[Dovemaiden]

What I have seen in this area is that everyone wants the Cree( Crele) color and the barred gingers. Those are both spectacular colors.

They are my favorites with my Hackle fowl. I would love to see this color in the Phoenix. It’s a shame that with Phoenix the colors sold are just Silver & Gold Duckwing, Black Breasted Reds and White.
It could be expanded so much more. Imagine if you could get some patterning with the Phoenix, especially something like the Mille Fleur or Golden Laced.
It would not be difficult to do, and would be very fetching indeed!

 

[Dovemaiden]

On the other thread, someone mentioned (I think, I'll have to go find it again in a bit) that they heard you ship birds. Is that true? I'm starting to compile my list for next spring's orders

And Jacin, I occasionally ship started birds ( Express Mail only). If you get the Alsdorf line going, and wish to have some genetic variability, I may have some started birds in the future if you wish to add a couple. I really would like to see as many photos as possible of the Alsdorf line, since I am not all that familiar with it. I need to do more research on it.
One thing I suggest is keeping a large notebook and recording each of the characteristics of each bird you use for breeding, if you decide the Hackle Fowl are what you wish to concentrate on its invaluable ( but really, any fowl you become enamored with & wish to breed long term). Banding is necessary, too. Just a thought. Also, photos to accompany each banded bird. I keep a bag of saddle hackle off each cock bird, marked with their band in plastic bags for comparison. I try the saddles & capes on a vise ( well, I have my husband do it) to be sure we don’t have twisting occurring.
So many people see those bags and decide they want to get into hair extensions as well!

 

[JacinLarkwell]

They are my favorites with my Hackle fowl. I would love to see this color in the Phoenix. It’s a shame that with Phoenix the colors sold are just Silver & Gold Duckwing, Black Breasted Reds and White.
It could be expanded so much more. Imagine if you could get some patterning with the Phoenix, especially something like the Mille Fleur or Golden Laced.
It would not be difficult to do, and would be very fetching indeed!

Off topic a bit, but my mixed pheonix pen actually has all sorts of colors. Apparently I got the dun coloring in there somewhere back in their line

 

[Dovemaiden]

Off topic a bit, but my mixed pheonix pen actually has all sorts of colors. Apparently I got the dun coloring in there somewhere back in their line

That is very cool! Not off topic, in my opinion. You get these unique colors to a breed three ways: 1. Crossing in the color from a different breed. 2. Linebreeding where your recessive colors are allowed to be affected by dilution factors and begin to be expressed, or 3. Mutation( which does not appear as often as we are led to believe).

 

[Dovemaiden]

That is very cool! Not off topic, in my opinion. You get these unique colors to a breed three ways: 1. Crossing in the color from a different breed. 2. Linebreeding where your recessive colors are allowed to be affected by dilution factors and begin to be expressed, or 3. Mutation( which does not appear as often as we are led to believe).

So, back there in the genetics, someone may have crossed in a Dunn ( blue) bird and now it is showing up as a throwback; or one of the other two scenarios.

 

[JacinLarkwell]

That is very cool! Not off topic, in my opinion. You get these unique colors to a breed three ways: 1. Crossing in the color from a different breed. 2. Linebreeding where your recessive colors are allowed to be affected by dilution factors and begin to be expressed, or 3. Mutation( which does not appear as often as we are led to believe).

We're thinking 2 and 3 are likely. The place we got them from keept the pheonixes in a mixed color pwn of only pheonixes, and they got them from show breeders supposedly. All sorts of neat ones have been popping up through the 4 years I've had them. Finally got my first white male too after only females for the past 60 or so clutches