Genetic Hackle Fowl Chat

[Dovemaiden]

So, back there in the genetics, someone may have crossed in a Dunn ( blue) bird and now it is showing up as a throwback; or one of the other two scenarios.

I thought a lot about your Phoenix question last night, as to why people say not to cross in these German fowl ( in the same vein, you hear not to cross in Ohiki, which is Japanese). Both CAN carry mt ( the non molting gene).
But, after all, a much greater variety of chicken breeds have been in the background of the Genetic Hackle Fowl— this is evident in the huge variety of combs, the discrepancy in a constant size, and in the writings of the breeders. Without doing a genetic test, we really don’t know what breeds were used, other than the oft-stated Barred Rock, Araucana, and Rhode Island Red.
We have clues— from Darbee’s writings; from throwbacks that appear in the linebred birds when you bottleneck the population; and from modern breeders as well.
Dr. Tom Whiting has a plethora of videos on YouTube that are definitely worth watching to learn( though it’s hard to hear him at times over all the crowing in the background, ).
I mentioned before he said he crossed in Silkies. He also stated when working for the Dept. of Ag. he was able going to import Coch de Leon birds from France ( I know I am not spelling that correctly, sorry).
In an aside, Dr. Whiting remarks that he has crossed in MANY other types to his lines, but (quote) “I would not even divulge what these breeds are to my own mother.”
You see the (understood) secrecy involved when your livelihood is dependent on having some very unique traits in your birds. It has taken Whiting, Metz and others many years to get to where they are now.
It’s a far cry from the early days of Darbee—-who never sold birds, but gave eggs/birds to other fly fisherman with the same goal —to further the feather quality —without thought of dry fly feathers being a profitable enterprise.
It furthermore demonstrates how times change.
There may very well be Phoenix (like the Schubert line); Yokohama’s,MiniOhiki, Ohiki, Sumatra, Aseel, Sumatra, Shokuku or Onadagoris( that last breed is almost a given for value of the mt gene) in Genetic Hackle Fowl. Mr. Reeder has reasonable suspicion from his work that it is highly possible Green Jungle Fowl may be back there is these lines, because of the molting pattern that matches the Green Jungle Fowl. That is an interesting thought.
We do not know without a DNA test.
I dont know if there is a DNA test for chickens that has the sequences of every single common —and rare— breed out there. Especially with néw threatened or nearly extinct European breeds being introduced yearly.
Sorry this was so long. I never have anyone to discuss the possibilities with locally. Hope your eyes did not glaze over.

 

[Dovemaiden]

We're thinking 2 and 3 are likely. The place we got them from keept the pheonixes in a mixed color pwn of only pheonixes, and they got them from show breeders supposedly. All sorts of neat ones have been popping up through the 4 years I've had them. Finally got my first white male too after only females for the past 60 or so clutches

How great is that! I love seeing new colors in my flock!

 

[JacinLarkwell]

I thought a lot about your Phoenix question last night, as to why people say not to cross in these German fowl ( in the same vein, you hear not to cross in Ohiki, which is Japanese). Both CAN carry mt ( the non molting gene).
But, after all, a much greater variety of chicken breeds have been in the background of the Genetic Hackle Fowl— this is evident in the huge variety of combs, the discrepancy in a constant size, and in the writings of the breeders. Without doing a genetic test, we really don’t know what breeds were used, other than the oft-stated Barred Rock, Araucana, and Rhode Island Red.
We have clues— from Darbee’s writings; from throwbacks that appear in the linebred birds when you bottleneck the population; and from modern breeders as well.
Dr. Tom Whiting has a plethora of videos on YouTube that are definitely worth watching to learn( though it’s hard to hear him at times over all the crowing in the background, ).
I mentioned before he said he crossed in Silkies. He also stated when working for the Dept. of Ag. he was able going to import Coch de Leon birds from France ( I know I am not spelling that correctly, sorry).
In an aside, Dr. Whiting remarks that he has crossed in MANY other types to his lines, but (quote) “I would not even divulge what these breeds are to my own mother.”
You see the (understood) secrecy involved when your livelihood is dependent on having some very unique traits in your birds. It has taken Whiting, Metz and others many years to get to where they are now.
It’s a far cry from the early days of Darbee—-who never sold birds, but gave eggs/birds to other fly fisherman with the same goal —to further the feather quality —without thought of dry fly feathers being a profitable enterprise.
It furthermore demonstrates how times change.
There may very well be Phoenix (like the Schubert line); Yokohama’s,MiniOhiki, Ohiki, Sumatra, Aseel, Sumatra, Shokuku or Onadagoris( that last breed is almost a given for value of the mt gene) in Genetic Hackle Fowl. Mr. Reeder has reasonable suspicion from his work that it is highly possible Green Jungle Fowl may be back there is these lines, because of the molting pattern that matches the Green Jungle Fowl. That is an interesting thought.
We do not know without a DNA test.
I dont know if there is a DNA test for chickens that has the sequences of every single common —and rare— breed out there. Especially with néw threatened or nearly extinct European breeds being introduced yearly.
Sorry this was so long. I never have anyone to discuss the possibilities with locally. Hope your eyes did not glaze over.

Nah, no glazed eyes here. I love learning genetics when they're understandable. I struggle with just lines of 'code' and do betelter when someone 'paints a story'.

No DNA test like that. There is one for the blue egg gene and I think one for fibromelonis(sp?) Though now.

 

[JacinLarkwell]

Except that I would hate to insult anyone, I almost want to use a GHF next year to cross to my pheonix and just see if I get anything noteworthy

 

[Dovemaiden]

Nah, no glazed eyes here. I love learning genetics when they're understandable. I struggle with just lines of 'code' and do betelter when someone 'paints a story'.

No DNA test like that. There is one for the blue egg gene and I think one for fibromelonis(sp?) Though now.

Interesting with the blue egg gene, it’s been determined it was introduced through a retrovirus way back when.
Retroviruses are notorious for doing more harm than good. This introduction doesn’t appear to have caused any overt problems that we are aware of ( yet) it’s been around a long while.

 

[Dovemaiden]

Except that I would hate to insult anyone, I almost want to use a GHF next year to cross to my pheonix and just see if I get anything noteworthy

Why not? How else will you find the result? This is what scientists should be doing to explore the possibilities.
You cannot model it on a computer with any real accuracy— there are too many modifiers/too much pleitrophy involved.
I would like to see the results.
If someone is “insulted” by your experiments, bear in mind they must have little to occupy their time at home, and that how you decide to do genetic experiments with your birds is not subject to other people’s whims, as well- meaning as they might be.
The problem with social media is the anonymous characteristic— you sometimes get people being quite rude because you do not know them personally, and there is no repercussion for the rudeness (other than to 1. either respond in kind, which they probably want; 2. explain your statements why evidence, which is usually ignored;3. ignore the correspondent; or 4. leave the Forum.
I suggest the ignoring of blatantly rude remarks because you are not going to change their mind, and you “feed” the drama by answering.
After all, if the person really was interested in investigative rather than accusatorial conversation, they would probably present evidence to support their position.
Just my personal opinion, for what it is worth.

 

[Dovemaiden]

Why not? How else will you find the result? This is what scientists should be doing to explore the possibilities.
You cannot model it on a computer with any real accuracy— there are too many modifiers/too much pleitrophy involved.
I would like to see the results.
If someone is “insulted” by your experiments, bear in mind they must have little to occupy their time at home, and that how you decide to do genetic experiments with your birds is not subject to other people’s whims, as well- meaning as they might be.
The problem with social media is the anonymous characteristic— you sometimes get people being quite rude because you do not know them personally, and there is no repercussion for the rudeness (other than to 1. either respond in kind, which they probably want; 2. explain your statements why evidence, which is usually ignored;3. ignore the correspondent; or 4. leave the Forum.
I suggest the ignoring of blatantly rude remarks because you are not going to change their mind, and you “feed” the drama by answering.
After all, if the person really was interested in investigative rather than accusatorial conversation, they would probably present evidence to support their position.
Just my personal opinion, for what it is worth.

Dr. Whiting is ( fairly)open with his experimentation ( witness the Silkie introduction) and is not worried is others may perceive his work. He is doing it on a far more grand scale than any of us— he is working with thousands of birds.
Any genetic changes we are making as individual, small breeders ( compared to Whiting) is not going to “ damage”the entirety of the Genetic Hackle Fowl OR the Phoenix Genome; and may yield some surprising and instructive results, yes?

 

[JacinLarkwell]

Dr. Whiting is ( fairly)open with his experimentation ( witness the Silkie introduction) and is not worried is others may perceive his work. He is doing it on a far more grand scale than any of us— he is working with thousands of birds.
Any genetic changes we are making as individual, small breeders ( compared to Whiting) is not going to “ damage”the entirety of the Genetic Hackle Fowl OR the Phoenix Genome; and may yield some surprising and instructive results, yes?

Why not? How else will you find the result? This is what scientists should be doing to explore the possibilities.
You cannot model it on a computer with any real accuracy— there are too many modifiers/too much pleitrophy involved.
I would like to see the results.
If someone is “insulted” by your experiments, bear in mind they must have little to occupy their time at home, and that how you decide to do genetic experiments with your birds is not subject to other people’s whims, as well- meaning as they might be.
The problem with social media is the anonymous characteristic— you sometimes get people being quite rude because you do not know them personally, and there is no repercussion for the rudeness (other than to 1. either respond in kind, which they probably want; 2. explain your statements why evidence, which is usually ignored;3. ignore the correspondent; or 4. leave the Forum.
I suggest the ignoring of blatantly rude remarks because you are not going to change their mind, and you “feed” the drama by answering.
After all, if the person really was interested in investigative rather than accusatorial conversation, they would probably present evidence to support their position.
Just my personal opinion, for what it is worth.

Okay. If everything goes to plan then I may reserve some from both groups to cross.

Would you think sex would matter for either breed? I think it would be easier to use a male GHF personally for my set up, but I hopefully will have both semesters of both breeds

 

[JacinLarkwell]

Okay. If everything goes to plan then I may reserve some from both groups to cross.

Would you think sex would matter for either breed? I think it would be easier to use a male GHF personally for my set up, but I hopefully will have both semesters of both breeds

Heck, I've got recessive white floating in my pheonixes, if I worked hard enough, theoretically I imagine I would eventually manage to get recessive white birds that at least resemble GHFs

 

[dheltzel]

Why not? How else will you find the result? This is what scientists should be doing to explore the possibilities.
You cannot model it on a computer with any real accuracy— there are too many modifiers/too much pleitrophy involved.
I would like to see the results.
If someone is “insulted” by your experiments, bear in mind they must have little to occupy their time at home, and that how you decide to do genetic experiments with your birds is not subject to other people’s whims, as well- meaning as they might be.
The problem with social media is the anonymous characteristic— you sometimes get people being quite rude because you do not know them personally, and there is no repercussion for the rudeness (other than to 1. either respond in kind, which they probably want; 2. explain your statements why evidence, which is usually ignored;3. ignore the correspondent; or 4. leave the Forum.
I suggest the ignoring of blatantly rude remarks because you are not going to change their mind, and you “feed” the drama by answering.
After all, if the person really was interested in investigative rather than accusatorial conversation, they would probably present evidence to support their position.
Just my personal opinion, for what it is worth.

I think the issue people would have would be selling the results of the crosses as purebred for either breed. As long as the heritage is fully disclosed to the next breeder, then they can decide if that is what they want to work with. My overarching goal with my GH birds is preservation of the genes I received from Joel. To that end, I feel I should distribute them widely, but my goals do not include outcrossing to other breeds.
I love the hear the results of such breeding and the genetic information gleaned, just do not represent them as pure GH to anyone until you have a stabilized line that has been used by experienced tiers and given a big thumbs up, then they would be your line, no longer the line of the breeder you got them from.