Genetic Hackle Fowl Chat

[Dovemaiden]

Next, mt. Non-molting is a QUANTITATIVE trait and is called an autosomal ( body, remember not sex-linked trait) recessive. It's a weird recessive, though, it is not straightforward like most genes. It has a couple of very strong, unusual effects that are pretty important.
1. You will see blood feathers that stay for a Very Long Time( I discussed this earlier) and that is called " perpetual growth" (think Onadagori fowl for the most extreme example).
2.The second thing that is abnormal is that molting is delayed.
Brian Reeder suspects these two effects may not even be caused by the same gene, but this is the best information we have to date, so I am sharing it from his book and his extensive research. It appears much of this can be traced back genetically to the Green Jungle Fowl, and there is a PhD paper, I believe that was going to be a thesis written in the late 1990's but I don't know that it was ever argued and published. David Rogers may have more data on this.
One of the strange things with non-molting genes in these birds is that it does not follow the 1:2:1 Mendelian patterns most people are familiar with, but instead, remember I said Brian Reeder favors the " quantitative hypothesis" ? it appears that every time you select for the non-molting trait to get longer feathering, that the non-molting trait increases incrementally in your poultry stock. Thus, the more you select and breed individuals for this, the more the trait is expressed in the offspring, and more tahn you would normally expect.
Dr. Whiting mentions this in one of his many youtube videos. He stated he now has that long-feathering trait showing up on the sides and the wings of his birds, and displays an example of a bird expressing this condition.
Brian Reeder is of the opinion that over-selection for the non-molting trait to get long feathers may, in some cases, if carried too far, result in a neurological condition that presents as seizures in certain birds and its a pleitropic type of effect.
. IF non-molting occurs without perpetual growth, those blood feathers dry up, but they stay in place and won't be molted for 18 months or even longer. In " The Introduction to the Form and Feathering of Domestic Fowl" Reeder matches this to the same pattern that the Green Jungle Fowl demonstrates.
I will expound on this concept in a later post, because I feel it is a lot to take in at one sitting.
3. Sd! This stands for that all-time important saddle hackle!
Next time, if there is interest, I will discuss this saddle hackle gene, Sd.
I think I discussed it a bit before, but, it too, is not the easiest concept. The saddle-lengthening factor ( Sd) occurs separately from Tail Growth ( Tg) but in almost an identical manner.
I hope some of this was helpful? Take care!

Do you recall when I was discussing how Brian Reeder said these traits you select for are QUANTITATIVE with each subsequent selection and breeding for them, the traits increase incrementally?
Here is a prime example in this photo from Dr. Tom Whiting. It was on a web page, I did not take the photo.
It shows how since he selected for that long feather growth, it has increased all over the bird, including on the wings amd sides, as mentioned.

 

[Dovemaiden]

The above photo is representative of the EXTREME “ typiness” for the long cape, and long saddle hackle characteristics.
Dr. Whiting has specifically chosen to breed for these characteristics, and the result is not only the cape and saddle hackles being far beyond what is normally seen in a Hackle Fowl; but there are new variations in which feathers are showing the lengthening factor, on not just the neck and saddle, but the wings and undersides of the bird, according to what he reported in his YouTube video.
I will try to locate that particular video for you to watch if you would like.
One thing to keep in mind is that line breeding for these extreme, quantitative traits may lead to deleterious effects in other ways, so be cautious in your pairings!
For example, you may lose muscling in the skeletal structure at the expense of rapid feather growth.
Extra protein rich feeds are necessary to support this increase in feather amount, but it still may not be enough to allow adequate muscling on the bird.
Secondly, Brian Reeder has worked extensively with these long-tailed, non-molting fowl, ( Genetic Hackle, Shoshoku, Onadagori, Minohiki, etc.) and has found when this form of extreme feather length thru genetic selection is pursued, it often leads to neurological difficulties, which may include seizures & even death at a much younger age than normal.
He mentioned them presenting with the symptoms at about 2 to 3 years in age in effected individuals.
I do not know how often this occurs; if that trait can be separated out or if it is such that it is irretrievably linked together (again, speaking of the neurological problems and the ultra-extreme feather length over-all in the bird). He did not mention if it was only occurring in the cockbirds or the hens as well, which would be good to know as well as to explore.
Please bear in mind that Dr. Whiting’s Hackle Fowl are extreme examples of ultra-long saddles & capes, even compared to the other lines of Hackle Fowl that people raise.
He also has at least six different lines of Hackle Fowl he is experimenting with, all exhibiting specific traits he wishes to develop, e.g the Spey Line, the Coq de Leon line, the Conranch line ( going back to Darbee &Miner); the Hoffman birds (which was his major gene pool to begin with, etc.)
Dr. Whiting has scrutinized his program intensively, and deliberately has chosen to select in the manner he feels is best suited for his needs and that of his company.
He has a PhD in Poultry genetics; and is an avian geneticist of the first water, so to speak. Whiting has not pursued this agenda recklessly or impetuously, but has carefully designed his breeding program around his customer’s preferences.
NOTE BENE: I do NOT know if Dr. Whiting has had any difficulties in the past, or is experiencing any of the deleterious problems that Mr. Reeder mentions MAY occur when line breeding of long-tailed & non-molting fowl are taken to the limits of their allele expression.
*I have not heard DR. Whiting in any way mention any thus problems with his program, and I am not privy to any data indicating this occurring.*
Obviously, with his background, education, and expertise, if he HAD experienced something of this sort, he has long since culled out the trait in any susceptible individuals and has not continued to breed them. I understand that the Whiting Corporation is extremely rigorous in their culling procedures.
I am merely repeating Brian Reeder’s warning that you must be very selective in your culling processes as well, & keep copious notes on each bird & their lineage— including the hens!!
You must be ever-vigilant in this regard to maintain your flock’s health.
And, that if you Do note these type of health problems raising their head, you must act swiftly to discover:
1. who is carrying these genes, &
2. eliminate them from your breeding program.
Seizures & early deaths are not desirable traits.
IMO, if by chance you did see this occur at some point ( and it might with some genetically-bottle-necked populations) it would be well worth contacting Mr. Reeder and paying for a consultation on the best course of action—I am assuming he may do consultations?— to see what can be done to maintain your best lines yet eliminate the undesirable neurological or any other deleterious problems to your flock’s health.
I hope some of this was of value.

 

[Dovemaiden]

By using CRSPR-CAS-9, you can easily transfer this set of chromosomes into other genomes, such as dogs, for example. Here is the result of one of my experiments last year( JUST KIDDING ! THOUGHT YOU NEEDED NEEDED A LAUGH)! GENETIC HACKLE DOG

 

[Dovemaiden]

See what happens with these “ quantitative traits”of taken too far by a mad scientist??!!

 

[Dovemaiden]

The next photo is from a Fly tie site and showed when someone has a Polish with these same traits( long saddle). No idea whose bird this is, if it was a genetic fluke or they bred it on purpose by crossing with some other chicken breed. But it is very fetching, although it doesn’t meet the Polish Standard, naturally.

 

[Dovemaiden]

The next photo is from a Fly tie site and showed when someone has a Polish with these same traits( long saddle). No idea whose bird this is, if it was a genetic fluke or they bred it on purpose by crossing with some other chicken breed. But it is very fetching, although it doesn’t meet the Polish Standard, naturally.

This would be super interesting if you could see this fowl expressing the Frizzle gene. It would look like a Dr. Suess bird, I bet.

 

[SourRoses]

@Dovemaiden I'm thankful we have you here to share such great information.

I found, from the beginning of looking into GHF, I can't watch Dr. Whiting's youtube channel myself. In one, he was standing next to the chick sexer over the bin of female chicks and stated they would be thrown away, without even a hint of regret.
For a week that moment played over and over in my head!
Imagine all the breeders out there who would LOVE to keep those females!
If you have to cull, a big operation can afford to cull in a humane way.
Personally, I'm looking into setting up a gas chamber with nitrogen or helium (for adults) because that would be the least frightening and least painful way to go.
To just throw away little baby chicks? Surely such people have lost something more important than money in their chicken journey.

 

[Dovemaiden]

@Dovemaiden I'm thankful we have you here to share such great information.

I found, from the beginning of looking into GHF, I can't watch Dr. Whiting's youtube channel myself. In one, he was standing next to the chick sexer over the bin of female chicks and stated they would be thrown away, without even a hint of regret.
For a week that moment played over and over in my head!
Imagine all the breeders out there who would LOVE to keep those females!
If you have to cull, a big operation can afford to cull in a humane way.
Personally, I'm looking into setting up a gas chamber with nitrogen or helium (for adults) because that would be the least frightening and least painful way to go.
To just throw away little baby chicks? Surely such people have lost something more important than money in their chicken journey.

I absolutely agree! Good grief, so these are useless to him? Half the genetics are those of the hen, how would you know what you are carelessly throwing away(but in this case actually throwing away? I watched just a couple of his videos, but did not see that one, but I am certainly glad you told me about it. Yes, I absolutely agree that people who do something like that “have lost something more in their chicken journey.” How many people would love to have just hen chicks and would take them?! But, because this is about having monopolies( as a money- making corporation) hoarding genetics has become more important.
I have heard many times that these places would rather kill the chickens then sell them or rehome them, because of the genetic-hoarding.

 

[JacinLarkwell]

I absolutely agree! Good grief, so these are useless to him? Half the genetics are those of the hen, how would you know what you are carelessly throwing away(but in this case actually throwing away? I watched just a couple of his videos, but did not see that one, but I am certainly glad you told me about it. Yes, I absolutely agree that people who do something like that “have lost something more in their chicken journey.” How many people would love to have just hen chicks and would take them?! But, because this is about having monopolies( as a money- making corporation) hoarding genetics has become more important.
I have heard many times that these places would rather kill the chickens then sell them or rehome them, because of the genetic-hoarding.

I unfortunately am in a 'somewhat' similar boat with my araucanas. I sell females, and have tried in the past to sell males. It's futile, and unless I want everyone and their sister breeding these birds (I am one of only a few people I know of that has any in the state that are bred true for sale), I have to ask a lot for the male's.

No one wants to spend more than a few bucks on the males, so they end up being processed instead and just females are sold.

It's certainly not the same as throwing away perfectly healthy female chicks though, since I have to raise them up to puberty to tell sex and they're used for something at least.

 

[Dovemaiden]

I unfortunately am in a 'somewhat' similar boat with my araucanas. I sell females, and have tried in the past to sell males. It's futile, and unless I want everyone and their sister breeding these birds (I am one of only a few people I know of that has any in the state that are bred true for sale), I have to ask a lot for the male's.

No one wants to spend more than a few bucks on the males, so they end up being processed instead and just females are sold.

It's certainly not the same as throwing away perfectly healthy female chicks though, since I have to raise them up to puberty to tell sex and they're used for something at least.

Yes, it’s always a problem with roosters, and we eat the extra ones here, too. And, you are right, it’s not the same as throwing away perfectly healthy hen chicks that could be used for eggs as well as meat.
I don’t know what the hackle companies do with the carcasses, either. You would hope the meat would be used, but I suspect they probably do not.
I myself do not have that many birds.
I am not raising them for capes or hackles to be sold to fly fishermen, but I am selectively breeding for longer capes, hackles, good temperament, disease resistance, and fast-growing feathers that are webless and twist-less( if that’s word).
I know what good hens should look like & select for that. For some reason, hens are often overlooked with people breeding birds in general. It doesn’t matter whether it’s canaries, chickens, pheasants, or the softbills and hookbills.
I don’t know why that is, I would wager just because in dimorphic species(even in the pet trade) people’s eyes are more naturally drawn to a colorful male bird?
I DO pull feathers that interfere with my GHF breeding, wash & dry them,then bag them with the bird’s leg number for my own genetic trail on my birds. Then I have my notebooks!
I’ve given these feathers away for people to fly tie or use as hair ornaments.
But mine is a hobbyist operation, I am not even selling eggs ( I have found fertility to be lower than other breeds, perhaps because of the pea comb? Or some other reason?)
I have only sold a few chicks(of the GHF, not my other chicken breeds) IF someone specifically committed to carrying on the lines. That has just been two people to date. A big hatchery may be able to raise chickens and make a profit, but that’s not why I have them, I am semi-retired, & I didn’t buy them for a business.
My husband got them as a gift for me to help me find something interesting & productive to do that I wouldn’t overwhelm me, and they certainly have helped, especially combatting depression. It makes me pullout my books and read a lot more; and get outside to just watch the birds and how they interact.