Genetic problem

[Spanielkiss]

I am sure that one strain of my cochin bantam hens has a genetic problem . The 2 hens and one Cockerel are producing a high percentage of claw toes and spraddle leg . When they were incubated they were in with my other hens eggs of a different feather colour and all of them are perfect . This is only limited to one colour / strain. What would you suggest I so . This has happened in 2 seperate hatches now . I have retained the chicks without problems and culled the rest as they didnt improve with “shoes “ . If I change the Cockerel would the addition of a different gene pool help ? Or are the hens now not for breeding ? Its very sad , I bought the Trio from a very reputable breeder . Im open to the discussion on what the best way forward is .

 

[2ndTink]

@pipdzipdnreadytogo has bantam Cochins and may have some advice.

My total guess would be that if you are seeing it equally in eggs from both hens, trying a different male would at least be worth a shot before giving up on the hens.

 

[NatJ]

I am sure that one strain of my cochin bantam hens has a genetic problem . The 2 hens and one Cockerel are producing a high percentage of claw toes and spraddle leg . When they were incubated they were in with my other hens eggs of a different feather colour and all of them are perfect . This is only limited to one colour / strain. What would you suggest I so . This has happened in 2 seperate hatches now . I have retained the chicks without problems and culled the rest as they didnt improve with “shoes “ . If I change the Cockerel would the addition of a different gene pool help ? Or are the hens now not for breeding ? Its very sad , I bought the Trio from a very reputable breeder . Im open to the discussion on what the best way forward is .

You could look into dietary deficiences, and give those parent birds some supplements. They may need a higher rate of some vitamin or mineral, compared with what most other chickens need. (If they do need a higher level of something, you will have to decide whether to provide that to them all the time, or whether you want to avoid raising chickens with special dietary needs.)

You could raise large numbers of chicks, cull the ones with problems, and spend several generations trying to breed out whatever gene is causing the trouble. This might work, but you would produce large numbers of problem chicks along the way.

I would expect that the cockerel and hens both carry the gene(s) for this problem. If you replace just the cockerel, you might be able to hatch chicks without the problems, but some of them would still inherit the genes from their mothers, and could produce problem chicks in future generations.

I do not know what is actually the best option for you, because none of them sound very good to me

 

[Spanielkiss]

You could look into dietary deficiences, and give those parent birds some supplements. They may need a higher rate of some vitamin or mineral, compared with what most other chickens need. (If they do need a higher level of something, you will have to decide whether to provide that to them all the time, or whether you want to avoid raising chickens with special dietary needs.)

You could raise large numbers of chicks, cull the ones with problems, and spend several generations trying to breed out whatever gene is causing the trouble. This might work, but you would produce large numbers of problem chicks along the way.

I would expect that the cockerel and hens both carry the gene(s) for this problem. If you replace just the cockerel, you might be able to hatch chicks without the problems, but some of them would still inherit the genes from their mothers, and could produce problem chicks in future generations.

I do not know what is actually the best option for you, because none of them sound very good to me

all of my hens are cochins and all chicks are fine apart from this one colour . They are all fed the same and have the same conditions in the incubator .I cannot see a solution in their diet. I could try outcrossing with a different male . I wonder if anyone here has found this to be a good solution?

 

[NatJ]

all of my hens are cochins and all chicks are fine apart from this one colour . They are all fed the same and have the same conditions in the incubator .I cannot see a solution in their diet.

That was my point: the diet that is fine for the others, might not be fine for them. There ARE some breeds of animals that have different needs, compared with others of the same species (I know I've read of it with some breeds of sheep, and I think some dogs as well.) This specific color of Cochin, from this breeder, might have special requirements.

Personally, I would not bother fussing with diet, because I would not want to raise chickens that need special diets-- but if they do have special needs, that might explain the situation you are seeing. The symptoms do sound like the symptoms of some kinds of deficiencies (example: riboflavin for curled toes).

Have you tried asking the breeder if they know anything about this?

I could try outcrossing with a different male . I wonder if anyone here has found this to be a good solution?

That might work.

Are you talking about getting another male of the same color, or about crossing with a different color to see if you can get healthy chicks that way? Either way could work to test the idea, and then you would have a better idea what you are dealing with.

 

[Spanielkiss]

That was my point: the diet that is fine for the others, might not be fine for them. There ARE some breeds of animals that have different needs, compared with others of the same species (I know I've read of it with some breeds of sheep, and I think some dogs as well.) This specific color of Cochin, from this breeder, might have special requirements.

Personally, I would not bother fussing with diet, because I would not want to raise chickens that need special diets-- but if they do have special needs, that might explain the situation you are seeing. The symptoms do sound like the symptoms of some kinds of deficiencies (example: riboflavin for curled toes).

Have you tried asking the breeder if they know anything about this?


That might work.

Are you talking about getting another male of the same color, or about crossing with a different color to see if you can get healthy chicks that way? Either way could work to test the idea, and then you would have a better idea what you are dealing with.

I could do a test by crossing with one of my other colours just to see if there are any issues at all with the chicks . Even if I had a small percentage with the same problem I think it may be a sign to pet home the 2 hens where they wont be bred from and give up on that color.

 

[NatJ]

I poked around online a bit more, and some breeds of chicken DO have higher riboflavin needs than others. For example, this article has a chart near the bottom, showing that breeder hens of broiler breeds need a higher level than breeder hens of most other breeds:
https://poultrydvm.com/condition/curly-toed-paralysis
So needing extra riboflavin is one possible explanation, although it is not the only possible explanation.

 

[Spanielkiss]

That was my point: the diet that is fine for the others, might not be fine for them. There ARE some breeds of animals that have different needs, compared with others of the same species (I know I've read of it with some breeds of sheep, and I think some dogs as well.) This specific color of Cochin, from this breeder, might have special requirements.

Personally, I would not bother fussing with diet, because I would not want to raise chickens that need special diets-- but if they do have special needs, that might explain the situation you are seeing. The symptoms do sound like the symptoms of some kinds of deficiencies (example: riboflavin for curled toes).

Have you tried asking the breeder if they know anything about this?


That might work.

Are you talking about getting another male of the same color, or about crossing with a different color to see if you can get healthy chicks that way? Either way could work to test the idea, and then you would have a better idea what you are dealing with.

I have contacted the breeder but haven't got a reply yet .
As for the 4 chicks that were hatched normal , will I need to cull them too or may they have missed out on the bad genetics ?

 

[NatJ]

I have contacted the breeder but haven't got a reply yet .
As for the 4 chicks that were hatched normal , will I need to cull them too or may they have missed out on the bad genetics ?

It could go either way.

If it caused by a recessive gene, about 2/3 of the normal chicks would carry it, and 1/3 would be free of it. If it is caused by a combination of two or more genes, the numbers are worse (even fewer chicks that are free of all problem genes.)

 

[pipdzipdnreadytogo]

What variety is it? Do you know their background as far as whether they've been line bred for a long time or how closely related the birds producing these chicks are to one another?

I can only go off of my own personal experience with somewhat similar issues. I had a pair of Cochins that had hatched in the same batch of eggs from the same breeder, so likely already at least half-siblings. They either completely lacked fertility or had very, very low fertility whenever I tried to breed them. The few chicks they produced together were smaller and weaker than chicks from other pairings. I never got the chance to try the hen with another rooster, but the rooster produced many healthy, strong chicks when paired with other hens. I suspect the original pair was too closely related to one another, something that chickens are more resilient to than many other species, but not immune to.

That's not quite the same as your situation, of course, but in either case I would not bother with trying to hatch any more out of a pairing that was consistently producing chicks with issues. I agree with NatJ that it's not worth it, at least to me, to adjust their diet and then end up with a whole line of birds with special dietary needs. I'd either invest in unrelated birds of the same variety to breed with these birds or outcross to another variety. Which variety to outcross to would depend on what variety the birds in question are and what you have available to you.