Genetic question about spangled gene...

[NatJ]

I have a Mille fleur roo and what appears to be a silver spangled chick.

My mille fleur rooster, as I’ve been reading, may not actually even be mille fleur because he only has white tipped feathers on his head and in his down feathers. His father was a porcelain sablepoot (the mille fleur patterning was in the porcelain) and his mother was a white silkie/OEGB mix.

He may just be a carrier for mottling correct?

Mottling is caused by a recessive gene.
So the Porcelain Sablepoot would have the mottling gene, and his son (your rooster) would have one copy of the gene.
Yes, that makes him a carrier for mottling.

And have spangling?

I do not think he has the particular set of genes that make "spangling" (the kind found in Silver Spangled Hamburgs.)

But some kinds of "spangled" chickens are caused by the mottling gene (Spangled Old English Game Bantam, Spangled Cornish, Spangled Russian Orloff.)

(Obviously, whoever was naming those chicken colors did not know which ones were caused by what genes!)

The chick looks like this:
View attachment 2833083

I’m just guessing silver spangled because I googled it and some of the chicks look like this one and I know it’s from that rooster because of other traits it has (4 toes, etc)

It can be difficult to look at a chick and predict the adult color, and with a mixed-breed chick it is even harder.

I'm fairly sure your chick will have some kind of pattern in silver and black, but I don't think it will have the kind of spangling that Silver Spangled Hamburgs have. (That's based on what you've said of its ancestors, and what genes they are likely to have.)

You should be able to tell something of the appearance when it gets its first set of feathers, but sometimes the pattern continues to change as a chick grows and molts, so it may not really show the adult pattern until it is an adult.

I'd love to see updated photos as it grows up

 

[meepANDpeep]

Mottling is caused by a recessive gene.
So the Porcelain Sablepoot would have the mottling gene, and his son (your rooster) would have one copy of the gene.
Yes, that makes him a carrier for mottling.


I do not think he has the particular set of genes that make "spangling" (the kind found in Silver Spangled Hamburgs.)

But some kinds of "spangled" chickens are caused by the mottling gene (Spangled Old English Game Bantam, Spangled Cornish, Spangled Russian Orloff.)

(Obviously, whoever was naming those chicken colors did not know which ones were caused by what genes!)


It can be difficult to look at a chick and predict the adult color, and with a mixed-breed chick it is even harder.

I'm fairly sure your chick will have some kind of pattern in silver and black, but I don't think it will have the kind of spangling that Silver Spangled Hamburgs have. (That's based on what you've said of its ancestors, and what genes they are likely to have.)

You should be able to tell something of the appearance when it gets its first set of feathers, but sometimes the pattern continues to change as a chick grows and molts, so it may not really show the adult pattern until it is an adult.

I'd love to see updated photos as it grows up

My rooster is 1/4 OEGB (old english game bird) and 1/2 Sablepoot - you listed both as breeds with mottling, so that must be responsible for his pattern, so not spangling. Thank you for the clarification! And, yes! I'll update with pictures as the feathers begin coming out

 

[meepANDpeep]

That roosters is mottled based not spangled based

Thank you Makes sense. They're used so interchangeably it was hard for me to know. So his chick probably is not mottled then?

 

[NatJ]

Thank you Makes sense. They're used so interchangeably it was hard for me to know. So his chick probably is not mottled then?

Depending on the mother, and depending on what genes the father passed on to the chick, it might be mottled, or it might carry mottled, or it might not.

My rooster is 1/4 OEGB (old english game bird) and 1/2 Sablepoot - you listed both as breeds with mottling, so that must be responsible for his pattern, so not spangling. Thank you for the clarification!

Some OEGBs (Old English Game Bantams) have mottling, and some do not. They are a breed that comes in many colors and patterns (but not "spangled" the way Hamburgs are.)

 

[nicalandia]

My rooster is 1/4 OEGB (old english game bird) and 1/2 Sablepoot - you listed both as breeds with mottling, so that must be responsible for his pattern, so not spangling. Thank you for the clarification! And, yes! I'll update with pictures as the feathers begin coming out

"Spangled" OEGB are mottled based, Sablepoot are Mottled based also

 

[The Kooky Kiwi]

Here's an excerpt/adaptation from another BYC article that I have always found very visually handy. The full post (which I recommend reading) can be found here:

https://www.backyardchickens.com/articles/genetics-an-attempt-at-simplifying-the-complex.64782/

It illustrates the different combinations of genes required to get the various patterns.
The required combinations can vary ever so slightly depending on what the starting base of the bird is.
For example sebrights are a Birchen based (Er) bird and require Dark Brown to form a single lace.
Birds with a Brown Base (Eb) do not require Dark Brown to form a single lace.

NB: Each of these genes has it's own pattern of inheritence. Some are recessive, some are sex linked, etc. So you need to familiarise yourself with each one to determine how they will pass from your parent birds to your chicks.



Co = Columbian
Pg = Pattern Gene (some call it pencilling)
Ml = Melanotic
Db = Dark Brown

· Co + Pg + Ml = Single Lacing
· Co + Pg + Ml + Db = Single Lacing (In Sebrights)



· Co + Ml = Quail Type Pattern - Columbian with patterned back



· Pg + Ml = Double Laced



· Db + Pg + Ml = Spangled



As previously mentioned by other posters - You can also build a spangled feather using Mottle as a base.

It would be fair to say that you need to use a combination of genes that first give you the colours you need, then move the black around the feather the correct way to form the spangle.

If you are missing one gene in the combination then you'll get example like "partial spangles" or "partial lacing", and all manner of other unusual effects in between

 

[The Kooky Kiwi]

Here's another handy reading resource:

http://www.aviculture-europe.nl/nummers/08E02A05.pdf

 

[nicalandia]

It would be fair to say that you need to use a combination of genes that first give you the colours you need, then move the black around the feather the correct way to form the spangle.

That is true, eb/eb, Co/Co, mo/mo, S/S would give you a Silver Spangled look a like

 

[LateBirdFarms]

Hamburger x Silkie pairing


View attachment 2110001

Just thought I'd add some updated pictures to go along with this old thread..
The baby on the left grew into this glorious pancake:

And coincidentally, all the patterned chicks all turned out female anyway!
Oddly enough, even the single patterned chick out of my SSHxBantam Cochin (black) trio turned out to be a pullet, while her solid black siblings were male!


if I hadn't asked in advance, luck would have totally fooled me into believing this was indeed a sex linked breeding! Thanks again to all the BYC experts who share they're hard earned knowledge!

 

[NatJ]

Just thought I'd add some updated pictures to go along with this old thread..

Those chickens are beautiful!

Thank you so much for updating!

And coincidentally, all the patterned chicks all turned out female anyway!

if I hadn't asked in advance, luck would have totally fooled me into believing this was indeed a sex linked breeding!

It's great to know how this came out!

How many patterned chicks vs. black chicks were there in total? With only a few, it's pretty common to get coincidences that look like they mean something