Genetic question about spangled gene...

[LateBirdFarms]

(I hope I posted this in the right spot )

So I tried the chicken calculator I found but it was all in genotype and not pheno, and I know nothing about how chicken genotypes work!

I was hoping to figure out if the spangled gene from my chicks Hamburg daddy would only show up on the girls? Or how that works in general.

The pairing was a Silver Spangled Hamburg Roo over a straight black silkie.

Can someone help me decipher if this would lead to a sexlink or spangled doesn't work that way?

Thanks!

 

[Amer]

Drat! There goes that little dream, but at least they're all such absolute cuddle bugs that I'm willing to wait for the egg or crow! I actually ended up with 3 out of this pairing, and they all have the lovely wings and black body.

Can someone please give me a short explanation on how the roo passes some things onto daughters but not all things exclusively? The mother was a visually black silkie, I don't know if she had anything recessive, but one of the chicks did end up with the adorable fuzzy feet. And how does the spangled differ from barring? I know the general rule of the female having two barring genes which is why they look darker and more complete than their male counterpart, but I'm not sure how barring differs from spangled.

Or if someone could point me in the direction of a few good pages to read, I'd completely in your debt!

Huh, if the mother of them was a Silkie, they should have all had feathered feet. You sure she was the mother?
The father passes fifty percent of the DNA and so does the mother. That is why chicks look like both their parents regardless of whether they are female. Male chickens have ZZ chromosomes while female chickens have ZW chromosomes. Most genes can fit on both Z and W chromosomes.
There are three types of inheritance: autosomal, incomplete dominance, and sexlinkage.
Autosomal inheritance: The dominant gene is expressed (or seen) and the recessive gene is hidden. If you have a chicken with a black allele and a lavender allele, the black is dominant, while the lavender is recessive, so the chicken appears black.
black Lav+Lav+ and lavender lavlav give you black Lav+lav

(not my pic)
Incomplete Dominance: Both alleles express on the same bird. If you have a chicken with a black allele and a dominant white allele, you get a black-and-white (paint) bird.
Black i+i+ and white II give you paint Ii+

(not my pic)
Sexlinkage: Only works if a gene is on the Z chromosome but doesn't fit on the W chromosome. Male offspring will receive sex-linked genes from both parents while female offspring will get sex-linked genes from only their father. If you have a rooster with chocolate (recessive) allele and a black (dominant) allele you get a black bird. If you have a hen with a chocolate allele and a black allele, that's impossible. The hen only receives sex-linked genes from her father. If her father was chocolate, however, she will be chocolate.
Chocolate chocchoc and black Choc+Choc+ gives you black cockerels Choc+choc and chocolate pullets choc-

(not my pic)
Sorry if this doesn't make any sense. I'll explain as well as I can if you have any more questions.)

 

[nicalandia]

I haven't worked with spangled myself but I think the cross would just give you black chicks.
Why or how did you suspect it would produce sex links? Just curious.
Spangled is not a gene but a result of a combination of genes.

At most the hens may look like a silver version of Black Sex Links, like a Pseudo Birchen due to the lonely Db acting kind of like Co, but also they could be solid black due to ML and Pg enhancing the E/ER background.

 

[LateBirdFarms]

What I did end up with was chicks like this from the Hamburger x Silkie pairing

So, that's the driving force behind my question. From my very very limited understanding of chicken genetics, the daughter picks up genes such as these if they are only expressed on the fathers side. I have no idea where that line ends and to which genes this is only applicable.

I was really hoping that if I could figure out the genetic responsibility behind these babies and if that indeed meant they were pullets, that I might be able to wrap my head around other chicken genetics, if just the basics! I know the basic genetics and pairings necessary to breed ball pythons and leopard geckos of a specific colour, but other than the E being black, the A being brown, I'm not positive anything else lines up.

Genetics is fascinating! I don't plan on breeding chickens just yet, I'm way to nervous and full of anxiety waiting for that hatch to find out if your 30% odds were a success or not, but a basic understanding would be awesome!

 

[nicalandia]

I was really hoping that if I could figure out the genetic responsibility behind these babies and if that indeed meant they were pullets, that I might be able to wrap my head around other chicken genetics,

No Sex linkage on that cross so both chicks could be either sex.

 

[meepANDpeep]

Thanks for sharing, that article is from 1920's and more recent research has confirmed the Autosomal nature of Spangling which is not a single gene but a combination of multiple genes that are linked to each other by a somewhat close linkage(10 to 15 map units of each other)

Oh neat! And hope I didn’t offend. I was reading about it because I have a Mille fleur roo and what appears to be a silver spangled chick. Was wondering about the genetics of it. Hence why I had both that article open and this thread

 

[nicalandia]

That roosters is mottled based not spangled based

 

[LateBirdFarms]

Hamburger x Silkie pairing


View attachment 2110001

Just thought I'd add some updated pictures to go along with this old thread..
The baby on the left grew into this glorious pancake:

And coincidentally, all the patterned chicks all turned out female anyway!
Oddly enough, even the single patterned chick out of my SSHxBantam Cochin (black) trio turned out to be a pullet, while her solid black siblings were male!


if I hadn't asked in advance, luck would have totally fooled me into believing this was indeed a sex linked breeding! Thanks again to all the BYC experts who share they're hard earned knowledge!

 

[LateBirdFarms]

@Amer Thank you so much for that! That's a beautiful explanation for a start! Thank you so much for going through the effort! You've turned my spark of curiosity up to a full blaze!

I'll have to go through my old pics and take another look at the chicks again, it's possible they all started with downy Feet (and I may have just looked at the same larger chick twice! ) The little one is actually a FTT chick that had the same hatch date as the other two, doing quite well other than its physical development, but I'm crossing my fingers for it. Positive they're from the same pairing, the only other hen topped by that roo was a buff orp and her eggs were a good deal larger and her chicks were yellow and white with a bit of black starting to show on their wing feathers.

Can you explain the spangled gene if you're able? I'm not having much luck with my google results but I'm going to try rephrasing my query!

**edit** Found some interesting stuff from a few universities in pdf form that I might just be able to decipher!

 

[LateBirdFarms]

Spangling is not going to be easily explained by a google search, because it is made up of several genes. I think the best way to study it would be to go to the Kippenjungle Chicken Calculator. Simply click on the (English) dropdowns and select the colors you would like to cross. Then click Crossing Over. This will show you the full genotypes of each of the colors selected, and if you click Calculate Crossing, it will show you what the offspring should look like.
The genotype of silver spangled is
ERERDbDbMlMlPgPgSS All dominant genes... with the exception of birchen, black is dominant over birchen, unfortunately. That is why you get chicks with a lot of black.

Holy heck! You're not kidding! It is going to take me a lot to wrap my head around the spangled part! I found a paper on how the mottled gene is responsible for several marking types, such as the spangled, and it's pretty thorough even if it does read like an automatic transmission repair manual! I'm going to have to read and reread, while cross referencing some terminology in order to even get a little familiar with what it sums up, but it's a good start!

Thank you! I'm going to have to play with the calculator a bit and figure out how that works as well! I was desperately looking for a chicken genetics calculator that worked much like the ball python one here : https://www.morphmarket.com/c/reptiles/pythons/ball-pythons/genetic-calculator/?select_input=t
I had taken a brief look at the one you linked, but I was positive someone somewhere had to be so in love with chickens that there would be a totally untechsavvy, simple click and play english version and never actually stopped to play with that one and kept looking since I didn't know the genotype for silver spangled! Thank you so much for providing it for me, you have no idea how much I appreciate it!

And you were right, all three do sport feathered legs! I took a look at their baby photos and Yep, they started with downy legs, the two larger ones are feathering up on their legs again, and the itty bitty is starting to show the signs of incoming growth
~~~

I haven't worked with spangled myself but I think the cross would just give you black chicks.
Why or how did you suspect it would produce sex links? Just curious.
Spangled is a gene but a result of a combination of genes.

I had made the silly assumption that spangled worked like cuckoo or barred, only misunderstood how those genes worked as well! I've got some serious reading to do!
~~~

At most the hens may look like a silver version of Black Sex Links, like a Pseudo Birchen due to the lonely Db acting kind of like Co, but also they could be solid black due to ML and Pg enhancing the E/ER background.

Now that I've got a clear understanding of the fact my understanding was incorrect, I'm even more eager to see how these babies feather out!

~~~

You've all been incredibly helpful and I can't thank you enough, it's a good thing I don't intend on breeding anytime soon, as I've clearly missed a few key points! At least you all didn't give me the dreaded news... you've got all sexlink MALES!

I hope you don't mind me crawling back for more answers I can understand as I dig through the information I did find, you've all been fantastic!