genetically, how do you get a golden laced cochin?

[lilcrow]

Quote:
Gold laced cochin have genes that make the secondary color pattern called single lacing.

The base color of the cochin is determined by two genes the brown gene (eb) and the gold gene (s+). These two genes make the female birds have a dark stippled reddish color. The males will have the typical black breasted red color.

Add the columbian gene (Co) and almost all of the black stippling is removed from the body of the female and the reddish color is changed to a buff color. In the males, the breast is cleared of the black color leaving a buff/red color. The red in the male's pyle region (head,neck and saddle hackles and back) is reduced to a lighter red color.

Adding the melanotic gene (Ml) will cause the pyle region of the male to become black and the female will add black to the head, neck hackles and back.

Adding the pattern gene (Pg) to the bird will cause the black ( due to melanotic) to move to the edge of the feather forming a lace. The columbian gene will clear any black from the rest of the feather. So, you wind up with a single lace on a buff feather.

Tim

Hot dog, you're just the man I've been wanting to talk to. I'm interested in the birchen pattern and I've been told that the brown-red is the red version of birchen. I've heard that you can breed birchen and brown-red and get both birchen and brown-red in the same hatch. I was a horse breeder and have some understanding of color genetics in horses. They have the red/black genetic factor, meaning you will have either a red based horse or a black based horse. It will be modified by many factors (alleles), but their base color is always one or the other, red or black. What I've heard about the birchen/brown-red breeding makes me wonder if that is the case with them. However, the way that you explain the poultry color genetics that doesn't sound possible. I remember sometime back seeing a picture of a birchen roo that had a few gold streaks in his hackle feathers. The owner's comments were that they had been told that this bird was a "pseudo-birchen." I'd never heard of such a thing and to date haven't heard the term. Do you have any light that you can shed on this area color breeding? Oh, and this is pertaining to cochins if it makes a difference.

 

[lilcrow]

Also osukrazykate, I might suggest joining the Cochin International Assoc., http://cochinsinternational.cochinsrule.com/
If you just want GL cochins either LF or bantams they have a breeders directory that you will get if you join and there are people that are breeding them TOO SHOW.What that means is, they are pretty good. It's going to be almost impossible to find a patterned cochin that would beat a black or a white at a show, simply because their type just isn't that good yet, but there are people that are committed to working on some of these patterned birds. My favorites are the partridge and birchen in bantams. I've tracked down the best partridges I've ever seen and they are very close to the standard of perfection in type. The breeder is a wonderful, kind man who is going to make sure that I get a trio as soon as his current batch reaches the age that he can make sure that I get at the very least BQ and of course hopefully they will mature to SQ. As far as the birchens go, I personally have a gorgeous cockerel and a nice little pullet that I got from Jamie Matts. I feel very lucky to have received the quality of birds that I have from Jamie and my little guy will do nothing but continue to get better. So with the birchens, now I'm just looking for pullets to increase his harem. Now that the breeders name has been mentioned on line attached to the flock that is pictured, I won't offer my critique of the type. I will say that they do appear to have nice color. I'm curious about the expense, when you said they were expensive, what do you consider expensive?
Of course if you're looking to create the gold lace yourself, you can do that, but it's kind of like recreating the wheel. You'd be miles ahead to go to a breeder, get the best you can get and then work on improving type which is hard enough.
It was mentioned that cochins are thought to be rare. I don't know if it's because my runs are full of them, but they don't seem rare to me. I will admit good ones are a bit more difficult to come by and particularly the patterns, but if you're willing to look they're out there. I've got blues, blacks, columbians, birchens and partridges and they're all bantams and pretty good representatives of cochins. At least, I know you don't have to wonder what kind of bird you're looking at. They are unmistakably cochins.

 

[tadkerson]

Quote:
Gold laced cochin have genes that make the secondary color pattern called single lacing.

The base color of the cochin is determined by two genes the brown gene (eb) and the gold gene (s+). These two genes make the female birds have a dark stippled reddish color. The males will have the typical black breasted red color.

Add the columbian gene (Co) and almost all of the black stippling is removed from the body of the female and the reddish color is changed to a buff color. In the males, the breast is cleared of the black color leaving a buff/red color. The red in the male's pyle region (head,neck and saddle hackles and back) is reduced to a lighter red color.

Adding the melanotic gene (Ml) will cause the pyle region of the male to become black and the female will add black to the head, neck hackles and back.

Adding the pattern gene (Pg) to the bird will cause the black ( due to melanotic) to move to the edge of the feather forming a lace. The columbian gene will clear any black from the rest of the feather. So, you wind up with a single lace on a buff feather.

Tim

Hot dog, you're just the man I've been wanting to talk to. I'm interested in the birchen pattern and I've been told that the brown-red is the red version of birchen. I've heard that you can breed birchen and brown-red and get both birchen and brown-red in the same hatch. I was a horse breeder and have some understanding of color genetics in horses. They have the red/black genetic factor, meaning you will have either a red based horse or a black based horse. It will be modified by many factors (alleles), but their base color is always one or the other, red or black. What I've heard about the birchen/brown-red breeding makes me wonder if that is the case with them. However, the way that you explain the poultry color genetics that doesn't sound possible. I remember sometime back seeing a picture of a birchen roo that had a few gold streaks in his hackle feathers. The owner's comments were that they had been told that this bird was a "pseudo-birchen." I'd never heard of such a thing and to date haven't heard the term. Do you have any light that you can shed on this area color breeding? Oh, and this is pertaining to cochins if it makes a difference.

The genetics of poultry is different than that found in mammals. Both have an extended locus but from there on they are different. Mammals have an agouti locus which is not found in birds. The genetics of birds I believe is much more complicated because of all the gene interactions. The E locus of a bird has 5 main alleles which cause 5 different primary color patterns in females and three different primary color patterns in males. Then you have a boat load of other genes that interact with the primary color pattern.


I do not breed cochin, I do have cochin, but what I will tell you is true of chickens in general.

The birchen allele is usually dominant to all other E locus alleles except the extended black allele. The extended black allele with a little help from other genes makes a black bird. Two birchen alleles plus the silver gene(s) makes a birchen bird. Two birchen alleles and a gold gene(s) make a bird brown red ( Black copper to the French).
The silver gene and the gold gene are alleles and are sex linked genes. Mammals work by the XY chromosome system but birds are different. Just the opposite of mammals. Birds use the ZW chromosome system. Males have two Z chromosomes and the female has a Z and a W chromosome. The sex linked genes are carried on the Z chromosome. Birchen males have two birchen alleles and two silver alleles while females have two birchen alleles and a silver allele. In brown reds you substitute the silver allele for the gold allele. The silver allele and gold allele are sex linked to the Z chromosome. Both are found at the silver locus with the silver allele being incompletely dominant to the gold allele.

If your cross a birchen female with a brown red male- the female chicks will be brown red and the males will be birchen. The problem is that the males carry a silver and a gold allele, which usually causes the males hackles to be a straw color. Silver is incompletely dominant to the gold allele so you do get some gold showing in the bird.

A pseudobirchen bird is not actually birchen. In some cases an extended black bird will look like a brown red or a birchen bird. Why it happens is complicated so I will not go into the details. It is a phrase I use to describe a bird that is a false birchen or not a true birchen. I see others have picked up on the term. It is an accurate description.


Tim

 

[lilcrow]

Hallelujah

Tim where have you been all my life! (I'm just exaggerating to make my point).

Thank you so much for this eloquent explanation of a very complicated and fascinating subject. You've made up my mind about breeding brown-reds to my birchen roo, not gonna' do it. It will clearly muddy the genetic pool and I have no desire to create contaminated stock. I want birds that breed true, there are enough surprises without deliberately throwing more in the mix. Again, thanks for the clarification.

 

[osukrazykate]

Quote:
Oh I am sorry, but you have misunderstood what I was asking? I am not wanting to recreate the Golden Laced Cochin. I am interested in their genetical make-up so I can work on them to improve them or use them for other project birds. Yes I do understand there are people whom show and will have very good birds themselves. But more importantly, I am trying to learn about the different genetics so that I may use it to work on a calculator that will not only tell you what you get when you breed what to what, but also help you get to an outcome that you are looking for (a sort of reverse function). Tim is very great indeed. He has answered many genetic questions I have had.

On them being expensive, I am not sure what you are referring to. I don't recall saying anything about them being expensive. Somebody asked if they are rare, but I believe they are just not as commonly seen as other varieties.

 

[Fay at Frizzled Feathers]

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Thanks Kathy for sharring those pics, pretty nice looking birds he has.

I have been wanting to get to Springfield and look at his birds but just never got there.Now i know i deffinately want to make the trip and get some !

 

[lilcrow]

Sorry osukrazykate, I didn't exactly misunderstand I just wasn't sure about your goal. I thought that it was a possibility you were wanting to do this but, I guess I was making some assumptions about why a person would want to recreate the gold lace pattern when it already exists, so my apologies.

I also find genetics fascinating and seek a better understanding of them continually. I recently found out about a poultry genetics book that I want to get someday, but it is very expensive $100 (I do consider that to be expensive for a book

) but it is well worth it. Too bad I don't have a DH like everybody is always talking about on here that would buy me one for Christmas.

I do hope you get the humor I intended in the last statement.

 

[osukrazykate]

Quote:

Yeah, I wish mine could do that! Oh well, I just search all through out the internet and ask questions along the way. It is expensive for a book I do agree, any book I feel it is expensive and have cringed intensely when I would have to buy one that were almost double that for a book I would have to buy for a college class. Ugggg! I did find though that sometimes I could find that same book in a library, but a lot of times they were a book you could only check out for a few hours and had to stay in the library with it and it was kept behind the check-out counter. Do you have a large library around nearby or maybe even a university with a good campus library. Sometimes they will even let the public come into the univ libraries. I for Xmas got a new sewing machine, actually I put it in the cart on black friday and said this is what I am getting $49 I think at WM. I don't know a thing about them except how to fix them, but it comes with a DVD so I can learn. My mom gave me her old one many years ago and it came with no directions and seemed like it broke needles all the time, not sure if it was my own error bcs I don't know how to thread the darn things. So if it comes down to it, call it your own Xmas present to yourself if you can't find and must have it! Oh and make sure you really search the internet, bcs sometimes you can find it also made in another country for a lot cheaper, it just might be a funnier type of paperback than what you are used to.

 

[lilcrow]

Unfortunately, this book is a specialty book and there is only one person in the U.S. that has permission to distribute them. It is brand new and being printed in limited quantities so I can see why it is so expensive. I don't have a problem with the value of the book, I only have a problem with coming up with the money. I am on disability and living on a fixed income doesn't leave much room for frills.

 

[osukrazykate]

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I understand that, I was laid off over a year ago and my husband is a school teacher (don't make much money in OK as a teach), plus I have gone back to school working on Phd and our oldest just went off to college as well. Not really any extra money to spend anything we don't have to have right now. Although, for the sewing machine I decided for the price and we definitely need some good curtains to try and insulate the windows in this very old drafty house we call home. Last year it cost us over $500 for one months of heat and we were still cold.