Genetics for breeding a blue feathered show bird with black lacing

[Leilukka]

How would I breed to produce:

100% blue feathered offspring with black lacing?

Would this offspring be recognized by the American Poultry Association for a poultry show?

Is there any way to breed my way to a blue feathered, black laced chicken that lays blue eggs?

 

[NatJ]

How would I breed to produce:

100% blue feathered offspring with black lacing?

Start with something like Blue Andalusians, that already have that trait (blue with black lacing).

When you breed blue to blue, you get about 1/4 black and 1/4 splash, with the other half of chicks being blue.

When you breed black to splash, you get 100% blue chicks.

If you buy Blue Andalusian chicks anywhere, you will typically get some black, some blue, and some splash, so you can just pick out the blacks and splashes for your breeding stock.

You will never get blue chickens with black lacing that can be bred to each other, generation after generation, and always produce the same color. You will always be dealing with black/blue/splash. A black chicken has no blue gene, and a splash chicken has two blue genes. A blue chicken has one blue gene and one not-blue gene, which is why that color can never breed true.

Would this offspring be recognized by the American Poultry Association for a poultry show?

If they are a recognized breed and color, yes. If they are not a recognized breed and color, there is a process to get new breeds and new colors recognized. I don't know the details.

Is there any way to breed my way to a blue feathered, black laced chicken that lays blue eggs?

Yes, as long as you accept the black/blue/splash situation.

Blue Ameraucanas might be pretty much what you have in mind. If they don't have the nice lacing, look for another breed that does (I think Blue Andalusians are the breed that usually has the best black lacing on blue, but there will be better and worse individuals in any breed.)

 

[Leilukka]

Thank you! Very helpful. Looks like we should invest in a black andalaisan, splash andalaisian and breed them together and then breed that offspring to the blue ameraucana. I think I got that.

Does it matter if the rooster is a black or splash andalaisian, or does it not matter?

And does it matter if the rooster or the hen is the blue andalaisian offspring that I then mate with the blue ameraucana? Or, does it not matter?

 

[NatJ]

Thank you! Very helpful. Looks like we should invest in a black andalaisan, splash andalaisian and breed them together and then breed that offspring to the blue ameraucana. I think I got that.

Does it matter if the rooster is a black or splash andalaisian, or does it not matter?

And does it matter if the rooster or the hen is the blue andalaisian offspring that I then mate with the blue ameraucana? Or, does it not matter?

It should not matter which one is the rooster or the hen, for any of those crosses.

And rather than mating a black x splash Andalusian and then breeding that offspring to an Ameraucana, you can save a step: just buy a blue Andalusian and breed to the Blue Ameraucana. Using a Blue Andalusian will let you check the quality of the lacing, which you cannot see on the black or splash birds.

To get blue chicks, you can do any combination of breeding black x splash (100% blue chicks), or blue x blue, or black x blue, or black x splash (each of those gives 50% blue chicks.) The blue gene in Ameraucanas is the same as the blue gene in Andalusians.

The only reason to use the Andalusians is to get better quality lacing in the blue birds. If you can find Blue Ameraucanas with nice black lacing, just use them and skip the Andalusians entirely.

 

[The Moonshiner]

that trait (blue with black lacing).

 

[NatJ]

What does this ^ mean in this particular case? To me, it looks like you disagree or are doubtful about any chicken being able to have that color.

But "blue with black lacing" seems to me like an obvious description of what some blue chickens have.

Examples:
The breast of the Blue Andalusian rooster on this page:
https://livestockconservancy.org/andalusian-chicken/
And the hen on this hatchery page:
https://www.hoovershatchery.com/andalusian.html
And one of the hens on this hatchery page:
https://www.mypetchicken.com/products/baby-chicks-blue-black-splash-andalusian
And some of the ones on feathersite:
https://www.feathersite.com/Poultry/CGA/Andal/BRKAndalusians.html

I seem to see it in pictures of Blue Andalusians more than in pictures of blue chickens of other breeds, which is why I mentioned them in particular. I don't know what other genes might be involved in making this effect, but some of them certainly do look laced. So to get more birds that look like them, presumably one would breed from them.

 

[The Moonshiner]

If blue is a dilute of black how can you have both colors on one bird?
If it's a blue bird with black lacing what about the splash version? Black lacing? Blue lacing?

 

[NatJ]

If blue is a dilute of black how can you have both colors on one bird?
If it's a blue bird with black lacing what about the splash version? Black lacing? Blue lacing?

It is definitely different than the other colors of laced chickens, that have a black edge on a gold feather. The gold can be turned to red or silver. Or the black edge can be turned to chocolate or blue or white. For all of those, there are two colors involved and each can be modified by various other genes, which is obviously different than the black-laced-blue we're talking about here.

I'm not sure about the genetics involved, but it appears that some birds do have blue in the middle of each feather, with black or a very dark blue at the edge of the feather.

I don't see that in pictures of black or splash birds, just the blue ones. I'm mostly going by pictures because I haven't seen enough blue chickens in person to draw any useful conclusions. But I'm pretty sure the black-laced-blue ones do exist, unlike some of the other things one sees on the internet.

I've seen speculation that it's just something the blue gene does, and I've seen speculation that maybe such birds have the pattern gene and other genes that would normally make a laced bird, but I haven't seen any conclusive proof either way. Since some birds have this laced effect and others do not, it seems a safe assumption that there are some genes affecting it, but that's not really helpful for figuring out which genes are involved.

Choosing the ones that have the right traits, and breeding them in hopes of getting more, is likely to work as well for that trait as for any other trait.

In this case, it looks like OP needs the blue egg gene, plus a basic understanding of black/blue/splash, plus selection for the exact effect they want in the feathers. From there it should just be a matter of time and patience, to keep selecting and breeding the right birds to get closer and closer to the goal.

 

[AinaWGSD]

The problem with this is that dilution genes effect  all melanin in the bird. That means all black is diluted to blue. If  all of a bird's melanin is diluted to blue then it is impossible to have a blue feather laced with black because that black lacing would also be diluted. The "lacing" that you see in birds with andalusian blue is not black but a very dark blue.

 

[The Moonshiner]

It is definitely different than the other colors of laced chickens, that have a black edge on a gold feather. The gold can be turned to red or silver. Or the black edge can be turned to chocolate or blue or white. For all of those, there are two colors involved and each can be modified by various other genes, which is obviously different than the black-laced-blue we're talking about here.

I'm not sure about the genetics involved, but it appears that some birds do have blue in the middle of each feather, with black or a very dark blue at the edge of the feather.

I don't see that in pictures of black or splash birds, just the blue ones. I'm mostly going by pictures because I haven't seen enough blue chickens in person to draw any useful conclusions. But I'm pretty sure the black-laced-blue ones do exist, unlike some of the other things one sees on the internet.

I've seen speculation that it's just something the blue gene does, and I've seen speculation that maybe such birds have the pattern gene and other genes that would normally make a laced bird, but I haven't seen any conclusive proof either way. Since some birds have this laced effect and others do not, it seems a safe assumption that there are some genes affecting it, but that's not really helpful for figuring out which genes are involved.

Choosing the ones that have the right traits, and breeding them in hopes of getting more, is likely to work as well for that trait as for any other trait.

In this case, it looks like OP needs the blue egg gene, plus a basic understanding of black/blue/splash, plus selection for the exact effect they want in the feathers. From there it should just be a matter of time and patience, to keep selecting and breeding the right birds to get closer and closer to the goal.

It is dark blue not black. Like you say with other laced birds you can change the black to blue. It's the same, once you add blue the black turns to blue.
The laced pattern is caused by a combo of several genes. Most blue birds don't have that laced look because they don't have that combo of genes.
The nice blue laced Andalusians do. You put all the laced genes on Extended Black and add blue. The Extended Black can hold the laced pattern and with blue added it gives that laced blue look.
The blacks and splashes also have it but it just isn't as apparent.

Now I'd be interested in seeing how it would play out with chocolate instead of blue.