Genetics for Pieds

[AquaEyes]

I think what we need to do is to come up with photos of birds with KNOWN genotypes to match with the following, for the purpose of showing how these three genes affect appearance, by themselves and in combination:

split to Pied (having 1 Pied gene)

Dark Pied (having 2 Pied genes)

split to White (having 1 White gene)

White (having 2 White genes -- and any bird with 2 White genes will look the same, no matter what additional color/pattern genes it has)

Loud Pied (having 1 Pied gene and 1 White gene)

Single-Factor White-Eyed (having 1 White-Eyed gene)

Double-Factor White-Eyed (having 2 White-Eyed genes)

split to Pied, Single-Factor White-Eyed (having 1 Pied gene and 1 White-Eyed gene)

Dark Pied, Single-Factor White-Eyed (having 2 Pied genes and 1 White-Eyed gene)

split to White, Single-Factor White-Eyed (having 1 White gene and 1 White-Eyed gene)

Loud Pied, Single-Factor White-Eyed -- may be called Silver Pied (having 1 White gene, 1 Pied gene and 1 White-Eyed gene)

split to Pied, Double-Factor White-Eyed (having 1 Pied gene and 2 White-Eyed genes)

Dark Pied, Double-Factor White-Eyed (having 2 Pied genes and 2 White-Eyed genes)

split to White, Double-Factor White-Eyed (having 1 White gene and 2 White-Eyed genes)

Loud Pied, Double-Factor White-Eyed -- aka Silver Pied (having 1 White gene, 1 Pied gene and 2 White-Eyed genes)



I think a LOT of the confusion comes from the names used for what the birds look like, and how they don't always match up with or explain the genotypes. For example, I think that things would be less-confusing if people didn't just use the word "Pied" to describe the birds -- they should say "Dark Pied" for birds with 2 Pied genes, or "Loud Pied" for birds with 1 Pied gene and 1 White gene. And we need to stop thinking that there is a "Silver Pied" gene -- there isn't. Silver Pied is the result of combining 1 Pied gene, 1 White gene, and 1 or 2 White-Eyed genes. If you think it's a one-gene phenotype, you'll remain confused when you try to breed more. While I'm not about to tell people what to do, if you adopt the terms I outlined above for your own breeding records and use them consistently, you will avoid a lot of confusion when trying to predict offspring.

I listed all the possible combinations of three genes -- Pied, White and White-Eyed -- above, with a couple of exceptions. I didn't list White Single-Factored White-Eyed (2 White genes and 1 White-Eyed gene) and White Double-Factored White-Eyed (2 White genes and 2 White-Eyed genes) because, while they are certainly possible, they won't look any different from a "regular" White that lacks the White-Eyed gene.

 

[AquaEyes]

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I wasn't sure about this myself, but I keep hearing that "split to Pied" birds will have a few white feathers, but usually less than birds that are split to White, and definitely less than birds that are Dark Pied (2 Pied genes). Pied, White and White-Eyed were described as Incompletely Dominant genes, which means that birds with one copy ("splits") will partially show the trait, but not to the same degree as birds with 2 copies. Since I haven't actually seen a bird that was accurately known to be "split to Pied" or "split to White" I can't say for sure, but I'm trying to make sense of it for everyone else. Yep, for everyone else -- because I, personally, don't like birds with white spotting.

;-)

 

[deerman]

split pied X Split white =some split white and some split pied. pied and non pied. those 4 type


pied X non pied = some split white some split pied. this is were alot make the mistake ones split white will have some white flights, split pied will not have. so breeders keep ones split white and sell the ones split pied. which you need to breed these two together to get pieds

 

[AquaEyes]

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[deerman]

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[PeepsCA]

Great thread... I personally love Pied Peafowl, and now after reading this thread I'm getting a much better understanding of how to go about breeding my own, LOTS of them, lol.
Thanks guys!

 

[deerman]

Yes i alway like the silver pieds.....just about everyone is different.

People who want to breed pieds or silver pied........used those dark pied or dark pied white eye from silver pied matings.


Now even myself ,i breed mostly from pieds, or silver pied because i like the looks of them, one reason i never breed white X white . Got all the white i need from pied mating.

 

[AquaEyes]

THANK YOU DEERMAN!!!

It gets frustrating for me sometimes because I can easily plot out genotypes, but I don't have peas myself and don't know how the genotypes translate into phenotypes (in other words, how the birds actually LOOK). You're being such a big help!

Something I'm wondering from what you wrote -- you're saying that there are birds called "Dark Pied", "Pied" and "Loud Pied" that represent three different "looks." You're also saying that Dark Pied and split to White look basically the same, and can't be told apart except by test-breeding or knowing for sure the genotypes of the parents, so that's one "look" with two possible genotypes.

But I'm wondering what causes the difference between what is called "Pied" and "Loud Pied" -- could this be simply a result of the randomness of the White gene (in other words, birds with just one White gene will differ in how much white is present in the body)? If that's the case, it can explain how birds split to White can sometimes look like Dark Pied, but may also have less white. If the birds split to White that looked just like Dark Pied magically had one Pied gene added, they'd be "Loud Pied." If the birds split to White that had less white had one Pied gene added, they'd be "regular Pied." Does this make sense?

In another species with a White gene that acts similarly to that in peafowl (Muscovy ducks), the birds that are split to White are variable -- some have a little white, others have more white. Having 2 White genes makes them completely white (though I have seen some pics of birds that were all white except for a colored "cap" on the top of the head...I'm wondering if the "solid-white" birds have a copy of another white-spotting gene called "White-Head", and birds with the cap lack this gene, but I'm not sure...and that's another story altogether). The "variability" of how much white these split to White birds has doesn't seem to be inherited, but random.

If the same case applies in peafowl, then genetically, there isn't a difference between what you're calling "Pied" and "Loud Pied" -- the "Loud Pied" birds just randomly had more white. There are genetic explanations for why this happens -- basically, in each cell, one member of the pair of chromosomes may be more active with regards to genetic expression than the other, and that determination is set early during embryonic development and maintained throughout life -- but the details are beyond this scope, and in any case, they wouldn't have any bearing in being able to selectively breed for more "Loud Pied" versus "regular Pied" birds because the selection of which chromosome is more active is random.



A question about the "split to Pied" birds -- do they have ANY white feathers? I understand that they don't have the white flights or throat patches, but do they perhaps have a random white feather or two in those areas? In other words, instead of a throat patch, might they have just a couple white feathers on the throat? And instead of all flight feathers being white, might they have perhaps just one or two? Do all split to Pied birds look exactly like normals, or does this vary as well?



And just to sum up, for everyone else -- there are three white-feather genes in peafowl (I'm not counting the BS and how it works in hens) that vary in how much white and where the white shows up. These are Pied, White and White-Eyed. Pied and White are two versions of the same gene, the third version being "normal." White-Eyed is another gene entirely.

The Pied gene seems to be the "weakest" in expression -- birds with one copy look the most like normals (or identical...I'm still figuring this out), and birds with two copies have a small amount of white at the throat and on the flight feathers. Birds with two copies of the Pied gene are called "Dark Pied."

The White gene is "stronger" in expression -- birds with one copy of White look like the birds with two copies of the Pied gene, and birds with two copies are completely white. Birds with one copy of the White gene are called "split to White."

If a bird has one Pied gene and one White gene, you have something that is "more white" than either Dark Pied or split to White, but "less white" than "completely white." These birds may be called "Pied" or "Loud Pied" depending on how much white they have, due to the random variability of the White gene in expression. Since these birds have two different versions of the same gene (Pied and White), they can't breed true. To get a bird with one Pied and one White gene, you need either parents with both (Pied X Pied = 25% Dark Pied, 50% Pied, 25% White) or one parent with one and the other parent with the other (such as White X Dark Pied = 100% Pied).

The White-Eyed gene turns the ocelli White. One copy of the gene makes some ocelli white, and two copies makes most (or all) of the ocelli white. This gene can be combined with the Pied and/or White genes. "Silver Pied" is the term used to describe birds that are basically "Loud Pied" (1 Pied gene, 1 White gene) with the addition of the White-Eyed gene. I'm not sure if the term makes a difference between birds with one or two copies of White-Eyed, but knowing that these are the three genes involved in making "Silver Pied" will help you in breeding for them.

 

[MinxFox]

Wow thanks Aquaeyes, Deerman, and everyone else! That clears up everything! Aquaeyes you really made it more easy to understand. Now that I know exactly how to get pieds I have just what I need already. I have some whites that are not related to my pieds and dark pieds and I am all set. Also my dad said we will build more pens!

Here is a picture from today of all my birds:

In the black pen I have Peep, a male dark pied, who is from Damsel my pied hen, and three white peachicks of which I am keeping one of the males and the peahen. The whites in the black pen are from another breeder but they are all siblings. I will probably pair the white male with my pied hen, the dark pied hen, and the white hen and maybe even the other pied hen...If it is a hen today it didn't look like one.

I don't really feel like pairing Peep with the little peachicks in the other pen because I think he is related to them. I know Ice was the one who hatched them out but I keep thinking they are secretly Damsel's. Then I probably need to get a blackshoulder peacock for Ice and an India blue peahen for Alto but then again I might just mate Alto and Ice and just have some split to blackshoulders...

I am excited to start splitting up varieties. I am tired of keeping them all together.

 

[PeepsCA]

MinxFox your Pied Hen is gorgeous... exactly what I want! I'm green with envy over here, lol.