liv4fun, I have never posted a picture on here so I will have to try to figure that out and see if I can get some posted in the next day or so.
German New Hampshire
- Thread starter crazyhen
- Start date
Quote:
No offense taken. When I got them I wondered where Gabbard farms got theirs. However if you notice the sun is shining directly on them so they appear lighter than normal. I have no doubts that they are far from standard but in order to achieve standard you have to work a little. I do intend to cross some of these with the german line and I'll cull like crazy. The german line is not as perfect as you might assume. I got some eggs from banjoejoe and they were not the prettiest things I've ever seen. Very Porous and very difficult to hatch. They need help. Inbreeding will also dilute the line. They need fresh blood. This will be a work in progress. You have to start somewhere.
Well I'm with Matt1616 on his responses too and I'd like to add a few pointers in here also and hopefully no offense will be taken 'cause that's not my goal but just to shed a little light on some of the topics here.
First of all the egg porosity is more than likely due to a diet lacking some nutritional value of some sort, it has nothing to do with the breed/line of certain hens; OR it may be the age of the hens too, as older hens do frequently produce porous and less viable hatching eggs. Oh also too, its also a known fact that this time of the year is tough on the ol gals and even the best of the best hens are more apt to lay a more porous egg esp. right before, during, and after the molt season(which is daylight triggered) which is going on right at this juncture in time, the shortest daylight hours of the year was just today.
On the linebreeding/inbreeding of strains These German lines do not need additional blood added to boost up the line as indicated. If you'll go over to the Good Sheppard Barred Rock thread and read up on this line that Frank Reese has here they are direct desendants from the world renown E.B. Thompson lines that have had NO new blood added to them since the 1920's. (they are known to be some of the best out there too) Now that should say something about not having to add blood to an already established line. The way that linebreeding/inbreeding goes all wrong is by breeding bad traits/faults into the line by poor judgment during the culling process. Its an old folk- tale about having to throw something else into the "mix" ever' so often(for good measure) to up the quality by genetic diversity/NOPE, they sure don't do it with heirloom plant and veggie seeds either, that's why they are called heirloom as they are the same ones handed down time and time again, same difference in bird strains too. They are your birds do as you wish, but I'm gonna concentrate on culling and breeding the best to best out of my bunch and get my strain the way I think is the best and the way I like/want them to be.
And to end on this note yes you are correct, the German line does have it faults BUT they are the best that have been posted on (here/anywhere else I've looked for them) to date. I've asked numerous times for somebody to step up and prove me and others on here wrong, haven't had any takers yet. We're still waiting on that to occur. So, I'll say that's what we've got to work with and to tell you the truth, a lot of the hype against them I do believe to be is a little bit jealousy driven too, that's my opinion and I'll stand beside that too till proven otherwise. Seems the one "feller" that had/has the most negativity to say on these German lines either has a vendetta against them, Mr. Akers, Germans in general(just saying), and has been asked numerous times to step up and show off WHAT exactly a SOP New Hampshire is supposed to be/look like (even if it is a bantam) has yet to do it. So all we get ever so often is a critical remark about this or that and no facts or proof to back up the gab. Still hope no offense is taken by anyone JUST SAYIN' it IS what it IS.
Jeff
Didn't know that E. B. Thompson ever kept Hew Hamps. He is the originator of the BPRock Ringlet strain. This is the first time I have seen his name associated with NH's.
Walt
No offense taken. When I got them I wondered where Gabbard farms got theirs. However if you notice the sun is shining directly on them so they appear lighter than normal. I have no doubts that they are far from standard but in order to achieve standard you have to work a little. I do intend to cross some of these with the german line and I'll cull like crazy. The german line is not as perfect as you might assume. I got some eggs from banjoejoe and they were not the prettiest things I've ever seen. Very Porous and very difficult to hatch. They need help. Inbreeding will also dilute the line. They need fresh blood. This will be a work in progress. You have to start somewhere.
Well I'm with Matt1616 on his responses too and I'd like to add a few pointers in here also and hopefully no offense will be taken 'cause that's not my goal but just to shed a little light on some of the topics here.
First of all the egg porosity is more than likely due to a diet lacking some nutritional value of some sort, it has nothing to do with the breed/line of certain hens; OR it may be the age of the hens too, as older hens do frequently produce porous and less viable hatching eggs. Oh also too, its also a known fact that this time of the year is tough on the ol gals and even the best of the best hens are more apt to lay a more porous egg esp. right before, during, and after the molt season(which is daylight triggered) which is going on right at this juncture in time, the shortest daylight hours of the year was just today.
On the linebreeding/inbreeding of strains These German lines do not need additional blood added to boost up the line as indicated. If you'll go over to the Good Sheppard Barred Rock thread and read up on this line that Frank Reese has here they are direct desendants from the world renown E.B. Thompson lines that have had NO new blood added to them since the 1920's. (they are known to be some of the best out there too) Now that should say something about not having to add blood to an already established line. The way that linebreeding/inbreeding goes all wrong is by breeding bad traits/faults into the line by poor judgment during the culling process. Its an old folk- tale about having to throw something else into the "mix" ever' so often(for good measure) to up the quality by genetic diversity/NOPE, they sure don't do it with heirloom plant and veggie seeds either, that's why they are called heirloom as they are the same ones handed down time and time again, same difference in bird strains too. They are your birds do as you wish, but I'm gonna concentrate on culling and breeding the best to best out of my bunch and get my strain the way I think is the best and the way I like/want them to be.
And to end on this note yes you are correct, the German line does have it faults BUT they are the best that have been posted on (here/anywhere else I've looked for them) to date. I've asked numerous times for somebody to step up and prove me and others on here wrong, haven't had any takers yet. We're still waiting on that to occur. So, I'll say that's what we've got to work with and to tell you the truth, a lot of the hype against them I do believe to be is a little bit jealousy driven too, that's my opinion and I'll stand beside that too till proven otherwise. Seems the one "feller" that had/has the most negativity to say on these German lines either has a vendetta against them, Mr. Akers, Germans in general(just saying), and has been asked numerous times to step up and show off WHAT exactly a SOP New Hampshire is supposed to be/look like (even if it is a bantam) has yet to do it. So all we get ever so often is a critical remark about this or that and no facts or proof to back up the gab. Still hope no offense is taken by anyone JUST SAYIN' it IS what it IS.
Jeff
Didn't know that E. B. Thompson ever kept Hew Hamps. He is the originator of the BPRock Ringlet strain. This is the first time I have seen his name associated with NH's.
Walt
Quote:
Well I'm with Matt1616 on his responses too and I'd like to add a few pointers in here also and hopefully no offense will be taken 'cause that's not my goal but just to shed a little light on some of the topics here.
First of all the egg porosity is more than likely due to a diet lacking some nutritional value of some sort, it has nothing to do with the breed/line of certain hens; OR it may be the age of the hens too, as older hens do frequently produce porous and less viable hatching eggs. Oh also too, its also a known fact that this time of the year is tough on the ol gals and even the best of the best hens are more apt to lay a more porous egg esp. right before, during, and after the molt season(which is daylight triggered) which is going on right at this juncture in time, the shortest daylight hours of the year was just today.
On the linebreeding/inbreeding of strains These German lines do not need additional blood added to boost up the line as indicated. If you'll go over to the Good Shepard Barred Rocks thread and read up on this line that Frank Reese has there they are direct desendants from the world renown E.B. Thompson lines that have had NO new blood added to them since the 1920's. (they are known to be some of the best out there too) Now that should say something about not having to add blood to an already established line. The way that linebreeding/inbreeding goes all wrong is by breeding bad traits/faults into the line by poor judgment during the culling process. Its an old folk- tale about having to throw something else into the "mix" ever' so often(for good measure) to up the quality by genetic diversity/NOPE, they sure don't do it with heirloom plant and veggie seeds either, that's why they are called heirloom as they are the same ones handed down time and time again, same difference in bird strains too. They are your birds do as you wish, but I'm gonna concentrate on culling and breeding the best to best out of my bunch and get my strain the way I think is the best and the way I like/want them to be.
And to end on this note yes you are correct, the German line does have it faults BUT they are the best that have been posted on (here/anywhere else I've looked for them) to date. I've asked numerous times for somebody to step up and prove me and others on here wrong, haven't had any takers yet. We're still waiting on that to occur. So, I'll say that's what we've got to work with and to tell you the truth, a lot of the hype against them I do believe to be is a little bit jealousy driven too, that's my opinion and I'll stand beside that too till proven otherwise. Seems the one "feller" that had/has the most negativity to say on these German lines either has a vendetta against them, Mr. Akers, Germans in general(just saying), and has been asked numerous times to step up and show off WHAT exactly a SOP New Hampshire is supposed to be/look like (even if it is a bantam) has yet to do it. So all we get ever so often is a critical remark about this or that and no facts or proof to back up the gab. Still hope no offense is taken by anyone JUST SAYIN' it IS what it IS.
Jeff
Didn't know that E. B. Thompson ever kept Hew Hamps. He is the originator of the BPRock Ringlet strain. This is the first time I have seen his name associated with NH's.
Walt
Didn't say he did Mr. Leonard
I put what I was talking about in italics: Good Shepard poultry farms, Frank Reese's Barred Rocks its all in relation to the E.B.Thompson line didn't refer anything to New Hampshires just using those as an example to make a point of an old line with no new blood added and it still doesn't need any yet I reckon unless someone knows something about them that I don't. Seems to be some of the best ones out there. IMO
Well I'm with Matt1616 on his responses too and I'd like to add a few pointers in here also and hopefully no offense will be taken 'cause that's not my goal but just to shed a little light on some of the topics here.
First of all the egg porosity is more than likely due to a diet lacking some nutritional value of some sort, it has nothing to do with the breed/line of certain hens; OR it may be the age of the hens too, as older hens do frequently produce porous and less viable hatching eggs. Oh also too, its also a known fact that this time of the year is tough on the ol gals and even the best of the best hens are more apt to lay a more porous egg esp. right before, during, and after the molt season(which is daylight triggered) which is going on right at this juncture in time, the shortest daylight hours of the year was just today.
On the linebreeding/inbreeding of strains These German lines do not need additional blood added to boost up the line as indicated. If you'll go over to the Good Shepard Barred Rocks thread and read up on this line that Frank Reese has there they are direct desendants from the world renown E.B. Thompson lines that have had NO new blood added to them since the 1920's. (they are known to be some of the best out there too) Now that should say something about not having to add blood to an already established line. The way that linebreeding/inbreeding goes all wrong is by breeding bad traits/faults into the line by poor judgment during the culling process. Its an old folk- tale about having to throw something else into the "mix" ever' so often(for good measure) to up the quality by genetic diversity/NOPE, they sure don't do it with heirloom plant and veggie seeds either, that's why they are called heirloom as they are the same ones handed down time and time again, same difference in bird strains too. They are your birds do as you wish, but I'm gonna concentrate on culling and breeding the best to best out of my bunch and get my strain the way I think is the best and the way I like/want them to be.
And to end on this note yes you are correct, the German line does have it faults BUT they are the best that have been posted on (here/anywhere else I've looked for them) to date. I've asked numerous times for somebody to step up and prove me and others on here wrong, haven't had any takers yet. We're still waiting on that to occur. So, I'll say that's what we've got to work with and to tell you the truth, a lot of the hype against them I do believe to be is a little bit jealousy driven too, that's my opinion and I'll stand beside that too till proven otherwise. Seems the one "feller" that had/has the most negativity to say on these German lines either has a vendetta against them, Mr. Akers, Germans in general(just saying), and has been asked numerous times to step up and show off WHAT exactly a SOP New Hampshire is supposed to be/look like (even if it is a bantam) has yet to do it. So all we get ever so often is a critical remark about this or that and no facts or proof to back up the gab. Still hope no offense is taken by anyone JUST SAYIN' it IS what it IS.
Jeff
Didn't know that E. B. Thompson ever kept Hew Hamps. He is the originator of the BPRock Ringlet strain. This is the first time I have seen his name associated with NH's.
Walt
Didn't say he did Mr. Leonard
I put what I was talking about in italics: Good Shepard poultry farms, Frank Reese's Barred Rocks its all in relation to the E.B.Thompson line didn't refer anything to New Hampshires just using those as an example to make a point of an old line with no new blood added and it still doesn't need any yet I reckon unless someone knows something about them that I don't. Seems to be some of the best ones out there. IMO
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Quote:
Didn't know that E. B. Thompson ever kept Hew Hamps. He is the originator of the BPRock Ringlet strain. This is the first time I have seen his name associated with NH's.
Walt
Didn't say he did Mr. Leonard
I put what I was talking about in italics: Good Shepard poultry farms, Frank Reese's Barred Rocks its all in relation to the E.B.Thompson line didn't refer anything to New Hampshires just using those as an example to make a point of an old line with no new blood added and it still doesn't need any yet I reckon unless someone knows something about them that I don't. Seems to be some of the best ones out there. IMO
I see....you are correct. That's what I get for speed reading. Sorry! You are also correct when you say you don't have to bring in other blood. I have used line breeding for many years with no problems.
w.
Didn't know that E. B. Thompson ever kept Hew Hamps. He is the originator of the BPRock Ringlet strain. This is the first time I have seen his name associated with NH's.
Walt
Didn't say he did Mr. Leonard
I put what I was talking about in italics: Good Shepard poultry farms, Frank Reese's Barred Rocks its all in relation to the E.B.Thompson line didn't refer anything to New Hampshires just using those as an example to make a point of an old line with no new blood added and it still doesn't need any yet I reckon unless someone knows something about them that I don't. Seems to be some of the best ones out there. IMO
I see....you are correct. That's what I get for speed reading. Sorry! You are also correct when you say you don't have to bring in other blood. I have used line breeding for many years with no problems.
w.
Quote:
I really appreciate the help. I can see I'm assuming too much. My original intention was to sell off my current flock and go with the german line. I got two batches from banjoejoe and out of 20 eggs only 2 developed ( and I paid a lot for them) When I candled them it was obvious they wouldn't have hatched because of the shell quality. I talked to several others that bought some and said they had the same problem and one person told me, and I just assumed he knew what he was talking about, said the line had been inbreed too much and needed the american line. I should have asked more questions from more people. I had one NH hen years ago and was really impressed with the size and quality of egg she produced and I've been looking for some ever since but trying to find breeders of good quality is nearly impossible. Your information is extremely helpful as I had no idea about the history. I've got 2 viable german line eggs in the bator now due this weekend. I'm hoping this will be my start. If I can get at least 4 or 5 more this spring, I'll probably take my current bunch to a chicken swap and focus on the german line. I'll stick with this thread cause I'm sure I'lll need some more guidance.
I really appreciate the help. I can see I'm assuming too much. My original intention was to sell off my current flock and go with the german line. I got two batches from banjoejoe and out of 20 eggs only 2 developed ( and I paid a lot for them) When I candled them it was obvious they wouldn't have hatched because of the shell quality. I talked to several others that bought some and said they had the same problem and one person told me, and I just assumed he knew what he was talking about, said the line had been inbreed too much and needed the american line. I should have asked more questions from more people. I had one NH hen years ago and was really impressed with the size and quality of egg she produced and I've been looking for some ever since but trying to find breeders of good quality is nearly impossible. Your information is extremely helpful as I had no idea about the history. I've got 2 viable german line eggs in the bator now due this weekend. I'm hoping this will be my start. If I can get at least 4 or 5 more this spring, I'll probably take my current bunch to a chicken swap and focus on the german line. I'll stick with this thread cause I'm sure I'lll need some more guidance.
Barred Rocker, I agree with what Matt has said. I would listen. On the other hand, after you went out on a limb to post pictures, bought your eggs, raised up your birds etc., do not get discouraged. I am sure you have alot of work invested in them. If you like your birds, enjoy your birds. I am sure that there are a few top notch breeders, that got some experience with "lesser" birds first. I figured comments were coming. That is why I said what I said. I am sure that you knew that you had hatchery birds because you bought them from a hatchery. Gabbard Farms is a hatchery, or working on it. Most of the hatchery NHs are not even identifiable as NHs. At least yours appear to be NHs. I have had NHs from four hatcheries. I do not have them anymore, but that is what I decided to do. I am a fan of the breed, so I like seeing other people interested in them. I know how hard of a time I had trying to get a start with them. As we learn more about a breed, our tastes get more "refined", and we get more particular about what we have. If I had not stumbled across this site, and Kathy's auction - I still might be looking to get a start.
I like these "German" New Hampshires a lot. If the perfect bird is out there, do not send them to me. I would probably make them imperfect. It seams half of the fun, is trying to get better. I find them to be pretty good layers. That is the impression that I have so far. Egg shell quality is good. In fact, I was excited about their eggs. Shape, quality, size and color. This line appears fine to me, as far as vigor. I think the cocks are especially vigorous. Mine are. Fertility is great, and the chicks hatch out big and strong. I do want to get my hands on some of the American/German crosses. I want to "grade" them in one family. There are a couple things I want to try to do. Other than that, I just don't want to mess them up.
Where did we get that the Good Shepard BRs have never had new blood introduced? I understand the value of line breeding, but 100 yrs is a long time. I don't think this is accurate. I am pretty sure that I have read about Sturgeon performing outcrosses. I think it was to mantain the slow feathering, not to invigorate them. I could be wrong. I often am. I am trying to learn more like everyone else. My question is for how long can you realisticly expect to go without adding new blood? Can you really go 100 yrs, if you know what you are doing? I think you at least would have to go back to related birds at some point. For example, if I am succesful and I am working with these NHs eight years from now, and go back to Kathy, Matt or someone that has related birds for a pair.
I like these "German" New Hampshires a lot. If the perfect bird is out there, do not send them to me. I would probably make them imperfect. It seams half of the fun, is trying to get better. I find them to be pretty good layers. That is the impression that I have so far. Egg shell quality is good. In fact, I was excited about their eggs. Shape, quality, size and color. This line appears fine to me, as far as vigor. I think the cocks are especially vigorous. Mine are. Fertility is great, and the chicks hatch out big and strong. I do want to get my hands on some of the American/German crosses. I want to "grade" them in one family. There are a couple things I want to try to do. Other than that, I just don't want to mess them up.
Where did we get that the Good Shepard BRs have never had new blood introduced? I understand the value of line breeding, but 100 yrs is a long time. I don't think this is accurate. I am pretty sure that I have read about Sturgeon performing outcrosses. I think it was to mantain the slow feathering, not to invigorate them. I could be wrong. I often am. I am trying to learn more like everyone else. My question is for how long can you realisticly expect to go without adding new blood? Can you really go 100 yrs, if you know what you are doing? I think you at least would have to go back to related birds at some point. For example, if I am succesful and I am working with these NHs eight years from now, and go back to Kathy, Matt or someone that has related birds for a pair.
Quote:
I may not be qualified to answer your question about 'how long can you linebreed', but I will give you my considered opinion . It depends. There are several things to think about. I think the most important is how many birds do you have? Mr. Frank Reese raises thousands of birds, so he is able to linebreed the E.B. Thompson line and never have an INbreeding problem. This is not the case for most backyard hobbists. We would be INbreeding our small flocks very shortly if we are only working with a few birds. Inbreeding is where problems come up. Many do it successfully, and it is the quickest way to establish and solidify a desireable trait. but you must keep very good records and you must be able to honestly evaluate your birds to select for the good traits and elminate the less desireable. Inbreeding will set both. Most successful breeders linebreed with a rotational 3 or 4 pen breeding system, and only occasionally Inbreed. There are several methods of linebreeding small flocks without Inbreedingm and they can easily be found by doing a search. The 1st thing to do is to understand the difference between INbreeding and LINEbreeding, it's a big subject and many people have very strong opinions about it. I don't want to get away from the NH dissicusion, and I don't think this line of dissscussion really goes here, so I'll get off of the soap box and go back to reading the thread now
Short answer is, you can LINEbreed forever if you have a large enough pool of animals to work with and keep good records. You will get in trouble pretty quickly with INbreeding if you don't. ...........stan
I may not be qualified to answer your question about 'how long can you linebreed', but I will give you my considered opinion . It depends. There are several things to think about. I think the most important is how many birds do you have? Mr. Frank Reese raises thousands of birds, so he is able to linebreed the E.B. Thompson line and never have an INbreeding problem. This is not the case for most backyard hobbists. We would be INbreeding our small flocks very shortly if we are only working with a few birds. Inbreeding is where problems come up. Many do it successfully, and it is the quickest way to establish and solidify a desireable trait. but you must keep very good records and you must be able to honestly evaluate your birds to select for the good traits and elminate the less desireable. Inbreeding will set both. Most successful breeders linebreed with a rotational 3 or 4 pen breeding system, and only occasionally Inbreed. There are several methods of linebreeding small flocks without Inbreedingm and they can easily be found by doing a search. The 1st thing to do is to understand the difference between INbreeding and LINEbreeding, it's a big subject and many people have very strong opinions about it. I don't want to get away from the NH dissicusion, and I don't think this line of dissscussion really goes here, so I'll get off of the soap box and go back to reading the thread now
Quote:
I may not be qualified to answer your question about 'how long can you linebreed', but I will give you my considered opinion . It depends. There are several things to think about. I think the most important is how many birds do you have? Mr. Frank Reese raises thousands of birds, so he is able to linebreed the E.B. Thompson line and never have an INbreeding problem. This is not the case for most backyard hobbists. We would be INbreeding our small flocks very shortly if we are only working with a few birds. Inbreeding is where problems come up. Many do it successfully, and it is the quickest way to establish and solidify a desireable trait. but you must keep very good records and you must be able to honestly evaluate your birds to select for the good traits and elminate the less desireable. Inbreeding will set both. Most successful breeders linebreed with a rotational 3 or 4 pen breeding system, and only occasionally Inbreed. There are several methods of linebreeding small flocks without Inbreedingm and they can easily be found by doing a search. The 1st thing to do is to understand the difference between INbreeding and LINEbreeding, it's a big subject and many people have very strong opinions about it. I don't want to get away from the NH dissicusion, and I don't think this line of dissscussion really goes here, so I'll get off of the soap box and go back to reading the thread now
Short answer is, you can LINEbreed forever if you have a large enough pool of animals to work with and keep good records. You will get in trouble pretty quickly with INbreeding if you don't. ...........stan
I fully agree with your post there stan,
And to Mr. Jensen I figured you'd read the Good Shepherd Barred Rock thread thoroughly beings you're stock you got from Kathy is directly related to these birds.
Anyway here's one post by Mr. Blosl on the history of that line of Barred rocks explaining from whence they came and how they got from there to here: Post #47
https://www.backyardchickens.com/forum/viewtopic.php?pid=4980153#p4980153
this is a quote from the link by Bob Blosl and as usual I don't know how to post it right on here but I'll mark it in bold print to get my point across.
This thread needs a jump start so I am going to show you a Sewell picture used by E B Thompson in some of his ads in the 1920s in Plymouth Rock Monthly and the Poultry Triubune. The current Heritage Barred Plymouth Rocks that are coming out of Kansas are direct desendents of this line. It is the oldest line of true Barred Rocks in the country. There are now two others who have this line and hopefully next year there will be about five more. The are breed for high egg production, tasty meet and great Heritage Looks or type.
Would you like to have some of these dual purpose Barred Plymouth Rocks????? Ask me how you can get some.
On the topic of adding new blood if you do plan on introducing/out-breeding from Mrs. Kathy or one of us others that have direct descendants of the same German line, that is a perfectly acceptable idea and highly recommended move but it still doesn't mean you're adding new blood per say, well not to me it doesn't. It's not like going and getting an altogether different strain or completely unrelated bunch and just throwing into the pot just to mix things up and WONDER WTH happens out of that move.
I venture to say if you'd ask Mr. Blosl how much new blood he's thrown into his Bantam Rhode Island Red strain in the last 20 or so years I'm pretty sure you'd get a definite; NONE! He's worked too hard to get them the way he wants them just to make one bad move and end up with some off the wall unknown batch of birds that could take generations to fix and get back into good shape.
Ok I shall step down from the pulpit now and get back to the subject at hand 'cause I'm sure I've done and gone off and got some feathers all ruffled up as usual, but Oh well its just the way I see it. I try to do all my joking and cutting up on the other thread on here and the other site, this breeding thing I do take a little more to heart and try to get facts before spouting off or sticking my foot in my mouth, notice I said do TRY
I may not be qualified to answer your question about 'how long can you linebreed', but I will give you my considered opinion . It depends. There are several things to think about. I think the most important is how many birds do you have? Mr. Frank Reese raises thousands of birds, so he is able to linebreed the E.B. Thompson line and never have an INbreeding problem. This is not the case for most backyard hobbists. We would be INbreeding our small flocks very shortly if we are only working with a few birds. Inbreeding is where problems come up. Many do it successfully, and it is the quickest way to establish and solidify a desireable trait. but you must keep very good records and you must be able to honestly evaluate your birds to select for the good traits and elminate the less desireable. Inbreeding will set both. Most successful breeders linebreed with a rotational 3 or 4 pen breeding system, and only occasionally Inbreed. There are several methods of linebreeding small flocks without Inbreedingm and they can easily be found by doing a search. The 1st thing to do is to understand the difference between INbreeding and LINEbreeding, it's a big subject and many people have very strong opinions about it. I don't want to get away from the NH dissicusion, and I don't think this line of dissscussion really goes here, so I'll get off of the soap box and go back to reading the thread now
I fully agree with your post there stan,
And to Mr. Jensen I figured you'd read the Good Shepherd Barred Rock thread thoroughly beings you're stock you got from Kathy is directly related to these birds.
Anyway here's one post by Mr. Blosl on the history of that line of Barred rocks explaining from whence they came and how they got from there to here: Post #47
https://www.backyardchickens.com/forum/viewtopic.php?pid=4980153#p4980153
this is a quote from the link by Bob Blosl and as usual I don't know how to post it right on here but I'll mark it in bold print to get my point across.
This thread needs a jump start so I am going to show you a Sewell picture used by E B Thompson in some of his ads in the 1920s in Plymouth Rock Monthly and the Poultry Triubune. The current Heritage Barred Plymouth Rocks that are coming out of Kansas are direct desendents of this line. It is the oldest line of true Barred Rocks in the country. There are now two others who have this line and hopefully next year there will be about five more. The are breed for high egg production, tasty meet and great Heritage Looks or type.
Would you like to have some of these dual purpose Barred Plymouth Rocks????? Ask me how you can get some.
On the topic of adding new blood if you do plan on introducing/out-breeding from Mrs. Kathy or one of us others that have direct descendants of the same German line, that is a perfectly acceptable idea and highly recommended move but it still doesn't mean you're adding new blood per say, well not to me it doesn't. It's not like going and getting an altogether different strain or completely unrelated bunch and just throwing into the pot just to mix things up and WONDER WTH happens out of that move.
I venture to say if you'd ask Mr. Blosl how much new blood he's thrown into his Bantam Rhode Island Red strain in the last 20 or so years I'm pretty sure you'd get a definite; NONE! He's worked too hard to get them the way he wants them just to make one bad move and end up with some off the wall unknown batch of birds that could take generations to fix and get back into good shape.
Ok I shall step down from the pulpit now and get back to the subject at hand 'cause I'm sure I've done and gone off and got some feathers all ruffled up as usual, but Oh well its just the way I see it. I try to do all my joking and cutting up on the other thread on here and the other site, this breeding thing I do take a little more to heart and try to get facts before spouting off or sticking my foot in my mouth, notice I said do TRY
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Barred Rocker, I feel badly for your bad luck with the hatching eggs thus far. Hatching eggs are always a gamble. For every one success story, there are 2 failures when it comes to shipping hatching eggs. There are several reasons for this as has been mentioned many times on this site. You have consider that shipping eggs can be traumatic to the eggs if the Postal Service workers don't handle them with care and unfortunately in this day and time I think some of them would get some sort of pleasure in intentionally handling them incorrectly. I would suggest you consider buying chicks rather than eggs as I think your chances of getting the numbers that you seek are much greater.
I also agree with gjensen, if you are fond of or attached to the birds that you currently have and have the space and money to maintain them with the addition of this line then by all means, keep them. I was simply trying to say that I wouldn't cross them to this German line if I were you. If you don't have the space or money to maintain both flocks then you may want to consider getting rid of them if you are satisfied with the German line when you get them. Either way do what makes you happy, that is what life is about right....
Gjensen, it has been my understanding that Sturgeon kept that line pure and so has Frank Reese but I guess when you're talking about 100 years of history who could say for sure other than those people themselves and since most of those people are not with us anymore I guess we will have to draw our own conclusions from what information we have available to us.
As far as how long it would take to develop problems linebreeding....well that is a good question and I think the answer would have many variables some of which would be, what kind of shape were they in when you got them and how you went about linebreeding them yourself. It also may depend on the breed, the location and what common faults are in that particular line. It has been my understanding from several very good breeders that when you have a bit of a geographical distance between flocks even if they are from the same blood line that after a period of time the DNA of the 2 flocks changes do to climate and soil variations as well as breeding difference. So in theory, if you had a strain and you sold or gave some to a person that lived some distance from you and you both kept the line pure for 5-10 years you could then exchange birds and provide both lines with a new shot of blood that would revitalize your flocks.
I also agree with gjensen, if you are fond of or attached to the birds that you currently have and have the space and money to maintain them with the addition of this line then by all means, keep them. I was simply trying to say that I wouldn't cross them to this German line if I were you. If you don't have the space or money to maintain both flocks then you may want to consider getting rid of them if you are satisfied with the German line when you get them. Either way do what makes you happy, that is what life is about right....
Gjensen, it has been my understanding that Sturgeon kept that line pure and so has Frank Reese but I guess when you're talking about 100 years of history who could say for sure other than those people themselves and since most of those people are not with us anymore I guess we will have to draw our own conclusions from what information we have available to us.
As far as how long it would take to develop problems linebreeding....well that is a good question and I think the answer would have many variables some of which would be, what kind of shape were they in when you got them and how you went about linebreeding them yourself. It also may depend on the breed, the location and what common faults are in that particular line. It has been my understanding from several very good breeders that when you have a bit of a geographical distance between flocks even if they are from the same blood line that after a period of time the DNA of the 2 flocks changes do to climate and soil variations as well as breeding difference. So in theory, if you had a strain and you sold or gave some to a person that lived some distance from you and you both kept the line pure for 5-10 years you could then exchange birds and provide both lines with a new shot of blood that would revitalize your flocks.
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Yes Matt1616 this is "supposed" to be a situation like some words in a song that Montgomery Gentry sings " it's where a man's good word and a hand-shake is all you need" is what you have to go on and I find it that most poultry fanciers are proud enough of their accomplishments they can boast and BACK-UP their word especially if their end product is worth a hoot to begin with.
Yes Matt1616 this is "supposed" to be a situation like some words in a song that Montgomery Gentry sings " it's where a man's good word and a hand-shake is all you need" is what you have to go on and I find it that most poultry fanciers are proud enough of their accomplishments they can boast and BACK-UP their word especially if their end product is worth a hoot to begin with.
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