Google Japanese Bantams and you can see them.... I found a thread with that info and it really is just like he said, 90 degrees, high and proud!
German New Hampshire
- Thread starter crazyhen
- Start date
Google Japanese Bantams and you can see them.... I found a thread with that info and it really is just like he said, 90 degrees, high and proud!
Here some of the guidelines from the standard Mrs. Kathy posted over on the Heritage New Hampshire thread, Chris
Actually lack of black ticking is a defect and points taken off for it not a DQ so they can still be shown.
The males are off in color as well as the females.
For one thing the hackle is what old timers used to call "yellow neck" and it was not because they were right.
The ground color of the females and the breast of the males is too dark.
Remember this is to be a dual purpose breed and was at one time the premier breed for broilers so they had to dress clean.
I recommend that you go to your library and check out the APA Standard of Perfection in color and look at the pictures.
I had Dianne Jackie redo the pictures because the color was wrong.
After 30 years of breeding the New Hampshire bantams I know a little about New Hampshires.
Thank you for weighing in on that. I thought the same thing, regarding a defect rather than "they can't be shown." But then I though maybe Matt1616 said this because he knew otherwise.
Are you saying the artist's rendition of color in the new SOP is accurate for the New Hampshire? I have the latest edition and it looks totally orange to me, with very little variation..... hardly noticeable at all actually. (Frankly, I think the pictures are awful. But, then again, I don't like any of Jackey's chicken art.) YET, the description uses many colors to describe the beautiful New Hampshire chicken:
MALE
HEAD: Plumage, Brilliant reddish bay.
NECK: Hackle-- lustrous, golden bay.
BACK: Brilliant deep chestnut red.
Saddle -- lustrous, golden bay, slightly darker than hackle.
TAIL: Main Tail -- black
Sickles -- rich, lustrous, greenish black.
Coverts -- lustrous, greenish black, edged with deep chestnut red.
Lesser Coverts -- deep chestnut red.
WINGS: Fronts -- medium chestnut red.
Bows-- brilliant deep chestnut red.
Coverts -- deep chestnut red.
Primaries -- upper web, medium red, lower web, black edged with medium red. Primary coverts, black, edged with medium red.
Secondaries -- upper web, medium chestnut red, having broad black stripe extending along shaft to within one inch of tip; lower web medium chestnut red; shaft, red.
BREAST: Medium chestnut red.
BODY AND FLUFF: Medium chestnut red.
LEGS AND TOES: Lower Thighs-- medium chestnut red.
Shanks and toes-- rich yellow tinged with reddish horn. A line of reddish pigment down sides of shanks extending to tips of toes is desirable.
UNDERCOLOR OF ALL SECTIONS: Light salmon.
FEMALE
HEAD: Plumage, medium chestnut color.
NECK: Medium chestnut red. each feather edged with brilliant chestnut red; lower neck feathers distinctly tipped with black.
Front of neck -- medium chestnut red.
BACK: Medium chestnut red.
TAIL: Main Tail -- black, edged with medium chestnut red; shaft medium chestnut red.
WINGS: Fronts, Bows, and Coverts -- medium chestnut red.
Primaries -- upper web, medium red; lower web, medium red with a narrow stripe of black extending along the shaft; shaft, medium red.
Primary Coverts -- black, edged with medium red.
Secondaries -- lower web, medium chestnut red with black marking extending along edge of shaft two-thirds its length.
BREAST: Medium chestnut red.
BODY AND FLUFF: Medium chestnut red.
LEGS AND TOES: Lower Thighs -- medium chestnut red.
Shanks and toes -- rich yellow tinged with reddish horn.
UNDERCOLOR OF ALL SECTIONS: Light salmon.
My ADDITION HERE:
Weights: Male 7 1/2 lbs. cockerel 8 1/2 cock, not exactly sure on the female but they normally run 1 lb. lower than the male's posted, pullet and hen weight. somebody with the correct numbers can add them if so desired.
Along with the 45* angle Matt posted too, I agree too with Matt of the angle being fairly high for an American class breed bred to the Standard. But too you see alot of show people breeding beyond the realms of the standard, toward the latest fads one of which now is a White Rock that's as big as Orpintons or Jersey Giants 11-12 lbs cocks the standard calls for 9 1/2 lb cock weight, so go figure there on that one. IDK
I think we are just too used to seeing so many production type birds with such high angle that it might be an ingrained image in our minds of what a chicken is supposed to look like. That's the reason for having and going by the Standard to breed towards. If there wasn't some guide to go by all chickens would look the same, just different color. Look at the ones(production type) produced by hatcheries, most look the same except for color you got reds(multi shades) barreds(cuckoo), whites, red/ whites, black/reds. Do a comparison of them all and you have the same bodied bird that lays numerous amounts of eggs and about the only difference is their egg color; white or brown. Why , because there is NO standard for a production type bird. Now don't get me wrong here, they are great for egg production I have lots for them.
sorry for getting off onto the rabbit trail but I'm back now, LOL
Jeff
- Nothing In Moderation
Actually lack of black ticking is a defect and points taken off for it not a DQ so they can still be shown.
The males are off in color as well as the females.
For one thing the hackle is what old timers used to call "yellow neck" and it was not because they were right.
The ground color of the females and the breast of the males is too dark.
Remember this is to be a dual purpose breed and was at one time the premier breed for broilers so they had to dress clean.
I recommend that you go to your library and check out the APA Standard of Perfection in color and look at the pictures.
I had Dianne Jackie redo the pictures because the color was wrong.
After 30 years of breeding the New Hampshire bantams I know a little about New Hampshires.
Thank you for weighing in on that. I thought the same thing, regarding a defect rather than "they can't be shown." But then I though maybe Matt1616 said this because he knew otherwise.
Are you saying the artist's rendition of color in the new SOP is accurate for the New Hampshire? I have the latest edition and it looks totally orange to me, with very little variation..... hardly noticeable at all actually. (Frankly, I think the pictures are awful. But, then again, I don't like any of Jackey's chicken art.) YET, the description uses many colors to describe the beautiful New Hampshire chicken:
MALE
HEAD: Plumage, Brilliant reddish bay.
NECK: Hackle-- lustrous, golden bay.
BACK: Brilliant deep chestnut red.
Saddle -- lustrous, golden bay, slightly darker than hackle.
TAIL: Main Tail -- black
Sickles -- rich, lustrous, greenish black.
Coverts -- lustrous, greenish black, edged with deep chestnut red.
Lesser Coverts -- deep chestnut red.
WINGS: Fronts -- medium chestnut red.
Bows-- brilliant deep chestnut red.
Coverts -- deep chestnut red.
Primaries -- upper web, medium red, lower web, black edged with medium red. Primary coverts, black, edged with medium red.
Secondaries -- upper web, medium chestnut red, having broad black stripe extending along shaft to within one inch of tip; lower web medium chestnut red; shaft, red.
BREAST: Medium chestnut red.
BODY AND FLUFF: Medium chestnut red.
LEGS AND TOES: Lower Thighs-- medium chestnut red.
Shanks and toes-- rich yellow tinged with reddish horn. A line of reddish pigment down sides of shanks extending to tips of toes is desirable.
UNDERCOLOR OF ALL SECTIONS: Light salmon.
FEMALE
HEAD: Plumage, medium chestnut color.
NECK: Medium chestnut red. each feather edged with brilliant chestnut red; lower neck feathers distinctly tipped with black.
Front of neck -- medium chestnut red.
BACK: Medium chestnut red.
TAIL: Main Tail -- black, edged with medium chestnut red; shaft medium chestnut red.
WINGS: Fronts, Bows, and Coverts -- medium chestnut red.
Primaries -- upper web, medium red; lower web, medium red with a narrow stripe of black extending along the shaft; shaft, medium red.
Primary Coverts -- black, edged with medium red.
Secondaries -- lower web, medium chestnut red with black marking extending along edge of shaft two-thirds its length.
BREAST: Medium chestnut red.
BODY AND FLUFF: Medium chestnut red.
LEGS AND TOES: Lower Thighs -- medium chestnut red.
Shanks and toes -- rich yellow tinged with reddish horn.
UNDERCOLOR OF ALL SECTIONS: Light salmon.
My ADDITION HERE:
Weights: Male 7 1/2 lbs. cockerel 8 1/2 cock, not exactly sure on the female but they normally run 1 lb. lower than the male's posted, pullet and hen weight. somebody with the correct numbers can add them if so desired.
Along with the 45* angle Matt posted too, I agree too with Matt of the angle being fairly high for an American class breed bred to the Standard. But too you see alot of show people breeding beyond the realms of the standard, toward the latest fads one of which now is a White Rock that's as big as Orpintons or Jersey Giants 11-12 lbs cocks the standard calls for 9 1/2 lb cock weight, so go figure there on that one. IDK
I think we are just too used to seeing so many production type birds with such high angle that it might be an ingrained image in our minds of what a chicken is supposed to look like. That's the reason for having and going by the Standard to breed towards. If there wasn't some guide to go by all chickens would look the same, just different color. Look at the ones(production type) produced by hatcheries, most look the same except for color you got reds(multi shades) barreds(cuckoo), whites, red/ whites, black/reds. Do a comparison of them all and you have the same bodied bird that lays numerous amounts of eggs and about the only difference is their egg color; white or brown. Why , because there is NO standard for a production type bird. Now don't get me wrong here, they are great for egg production I have lots for them.
sorry for getting off onto the rabbit trail but I'm back now, LOL
Jeff
Last edited:
This is going back a little way but I didn't reply to Ed's message because I guess I didn't see it. I said "basically can't be shown" meaning that I wouldn't show them because their chances of winning are very small and I see no point in showing a chicken that has no chance to win. I never said it was a DQ and didn't intend to imply that. By saying "basically" and not "definately" I thought everyone would understand what I was implying. Sometimes I'm not very good at conveying my thoughts on the keyboard. I still stand by my assertion that some of the males in this line are outstanding. Again, I didn't say perfect and I do realise that they are off in color and type but I do think that they can serve a purpose in getting the American New Hampshires back on champion row. I have been working with these birds, the pure German and German/American cross for about a year and I feel like I have culled well and I am getting closer each generation to where I need to be. I am going to continue to look for quality American lines of New Hampshires to help this project. With the help of some others we have located 2 lines that seem to be pretty good. I haven't attained any yet but I intend to.
I would also like to add this to this discussion, I know that everyone that has acquired these New Hampshires in the last year or 2 don't have the same intentions that I do which is to show them but with any breed that I show, I am not trying to win best of breed...I am trying to win Champion American and go on to compete for Champion Large Fowl. Winning Best of Breed is nice but if that breed is not very good what have you really won. The true test is to beat the other American breeds and win Champion Large Fowl. To explain what I mean...I recently showed at the show in Newnan Ga and there was probably 12-14 New Hampshires in the show. Well, I won Best of Breed with a crossed Cockerel and Reserve of Breed with a crossed Pullet. All the birds there were either pure German or the German/American cross. I took 3 birds and won 1st and 2nd in that breed. Now that tells me that I culled pretty well and I conditioned the birds pretty well but when I asked the judge about my New Hampshires competing for Champion American he told me that they were a pretty good ways from winning the American class because the color was to far off and the type was good but needed some work.
The reason I am saying all of this is because I have seen several posts on this thread saying that these birds are the best NH's in the country. I think a more proper thing to say is that they are the best NH's that you have personally seen. I'm sure there is a few good lines of American NH's out there and without finding them and using them in this project, I don't feel like I will attain my goal of getting them back to a winning level in the show ring. I am very pleased that interest in NH's has been resurected by this line and I feel like that is going to help with getting back to where they need to be. With all of the people that have acquired these birds it can only help the breed as the number increase. I know that some people will not breed correctly but some will and that is what excites me.
Thoughts?
I would also like to add this to this discussion, I know that everyone that has acquired these New Hampshires in the last year or 2 don't have the same intentions that I do which is to show them but with any breed that I show, I am not trying to win best of breed...I am trying to win Champion American and go on to compete for Champion Large Fowl. Winning Best of Breed is nice but if that breed is not very good what have you really won. The true test is to beat the other American breeds and win Champion Large Fowl. To explain what I mean...I recently showed at the show in Newnan Ga and there was probably 12-14 New Hampshires in the show. Well, I won Best of Breed with a crossed Cockerel and Reserve of Breed with a crossed Pullet. All the birds there were either pure German or the German/American cross. I took 3 birds and won 1st and 2nd in that breed. Now that tells me that I culled pretty well and I conditioned the birds pretty well but when I asked the judge about my New Hampshires competing for Champion American he told me that they were a pretty good ways from winning the American class because the color was to far off and the type was good but needed some work.
The reason I am saying all of this is because I have seen several posts on this thread saying that these birds are the best NH's in the country. I think a more proper thing to say is that they are the best NH's that you have personally seen. I'm sure there is a few good lines of American NH's out there and without finding them and using them in this project, I don't feel like I will attain my goal of getting them back to a winning level in the show ring. I am very pleased that interest in NH's has been resurected by this line and I feel like that is going to help with getting back to where they need to be. With all of the people that have acquired these birds it can only help the breed as the number increase. I know that some people will not breed correctly but some will and that is what excites me.
Thoughts?
Do you have any pics of your birds? Anybody really .... I would love to see the AM NH too to see what the differences are. I have some of these eggs in the bator from some birds shown at Newnan. I would like to improve them. But I am unclear what the "Look" is we need to improve to the AM NH. The black ticking I know needs improvement, but to what?
As is with any chicken...... there are always better ones somewhere, in my opinion.
You have a grand goal, Matt. I hope you make that goal, too! I will follow along and watch your progress, and sing praises, too!
There are a few, like you said, that will work on their stock. I always enjoy watching that. I also really like when folks state their breeding rationale. ie..... picture of this and that, saying, "I am using this so and so, in hopes to improve the such and such in this area." Ya know what I mean? I think we can all learn from things like this.
I am still confused with this color issue. The SOP wording and what some say regarding this subject, seem to differ. It appears to me, to be alot of opinion or preference, rather than fact. Of course, color description is sorta subjective, I guess.
You have a grand goal, Matt. I hope you make that goal, too! I will follow along and watch your progress, and sing praises, too!
There are a few, like you said, that will work on their stock. I always enjoy watching that. I also really like when folks state their breeding rationale. ie..... picture of this and that, saying, "I am using this so and so, in hopes to improve the such and such in this area." Ya know what I mean? I think we can all learn from things like this.
I am still confused with this color issue. The SOP wording and what some say regarding this subject, seem to differ. It appears to me, to be alot of opinion or preference, rather than fact. Of course, color description is sorta subjective, I guess.
Thanks for the offer Matt. I ordered the book already for myself but I’m sure once I get it and start reading through it, I will be asking you and others for clarification on different things as they come up.
My biggest hurdle right now and this is not only with this breed but with the two others I plan to work with this year going forward, is this… to breed towards the standard or breed towards what is winning in the show ring right now. A couple of examples…size (this is a big one for me) and color. The big is better mentality really screws me up with showing anything. I know with dogs your animal needs to be with in this # and that # in order to even make the class. If the standard says 8#’s and a 14# birds wins a class I think that I would have to question that Judge on placing the 14# bird first. It’s not the SOP so it should not even be considered, in my opinion anyway.
My heart tells me to breed towards the letter of the SOP but my desired to win (if I decide to even start showing) will always pull me in the other direction. Defiantly a struggle with-in!!! LOL!!!
Chris
Kathy, I totally agree with you on the color issue. As far as showing goes it depends on the judge you have at a particular show which makes the standard about as clear as mud. I would have to say that is the most frustrating thing about showing. I had the oppurtunity to talk with a gentleman at a show last fall that is has acheived "master breeder" status with New Hampshire Bantams and he is also a judge. He looked at my birds and told me they were nice but to dark so I asked him how much lighter did they need to be...so he took me down and showed me his bantams and they were much lighter than my large fowl. Another point is in the females the whole bird should be the same color. You can't have a lighter hackle or darker on the back. If you look at the standard it says "medium chestnut red" on every color point on the females. I guess my question is what is "medium chestnut red"? If you asked 10 people I bet you would get at least 5 differring answers. The one bantam hen that he showed me that he said was the preferred color almost looked like a dark buff color, to me it wasn't "medium chestnut red". It was very light so to get there I just don't see how I can do it with just the German line. Now I'm not criticizing his birds, I have talked to him several times since and he is very nice and is a great resource for me moving forward but to me that is to light to be classified "medium chestnut red". I have spoke with several judges since then and they all said basically the same thing that this gentlman told me.
Okay all you chicken experts. lol I have a real question for you all. Look at this picture and give me your honest opinion. Every other and some times every day I get an egg like this. I don't know which hen it is that is laying it, it is almost flat in the area where you see the hole. Sometimes the part of the shell that is gone on this picture is there but pushed down in sort of like the little piece of metal on top of a pop can when you open it. Sometimes the inner membrane is still there covering the inside of the egg, sometimes it isn't there and the white of the egg is oozing out. When I got the first one like this, I thought it was just that the hen put her toe nail through it but since getting this every day or so, I know that it isn't that. This morning when I went to feed, this egg was already in the nest by itself and no hens on the nest but there was the hole. This is one of the strangest things that I've come up against with eggs. I believe that this is from one of my Delaware hens but can't be sure. Oh, the shell around the hole is not soft, it is just like the rest of the egg. It's just like that one spot has no shell forming on it. lol Really is strange. This has been going on for about 2 weeks or so.
Chris, that is something you will have to make a decision on at some point if you decide to show and I guess more importantly if you want to win. I have seen it go both ways, I have seen judges that I felt done a really good job of following the standard and I have seen some that I felt like placed certain birds that were big but had poor type. There are some, not all but some breeds that have gotten a good bit past the standard weight and they do win a lot of times. I have also heard judges saying that certain lines within particular breeds were getting to big and they were going to stop placing them if they didn't bring the size down. I can tell you I would not want to be a poultry judge because you really only have a moment to look at each bird and you are only going to make one person happy and that is the person that wins. I do feel like you really can't take one or two judges opinions and base your breeding program on it because each judge may interpret the standard a little differently and there are many judges. I think all you can really do is read and look at the standard try to comprehend it well and get as many opinions from judges and master breeders as you can and then choose your own direction, stick to it and hope for the best. If you chase trends you will eventually get in trouble because one common thing with trends as they often change.
DMRippy, did you get your eggs from a guy named Tony at Newnan?
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