German New Hampshire

[Matt1616]

I don't post very much on this forum but I felt compelled to post because I am breeding and showing New Hampshires.
Barred Rocker I'm not sure what your intentions are with your New Hampshires but if your incubating some of the German New Hampshire eggs I would not cross them with the birds that you have pictured above. I'm not sure if I am seeing the same pictures as everyone else but the birds you have pictured above are far from the standard. They look like standard hatchery birds to me. The hens are way to light for New Hampshires, they almost look like a buff colored chicken with red heads and hackles. They do not have any black in the tail and no ticking on the hackle. If you will just go to Google and click on images on the top and do a search for "New Hampshire Chicken" and scroll until you see some pictures that look like paintings you will see the proper color of a New Hampshire. The Cockerel's type is off as well. Like I said if you hatch some of the German line I would keep them pure and not cross them to your current line as that will only serve to dilute the German line and pull them down. Not trying to offend anyone, I'm just giving you my opinion.

 

[har]

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I appreciate your post

 

[Barred Rocker]

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No offense taken. When I got them I wondered where Gabbard farms got theirs. However if you notice the sun is shining directly on them so they appear lighter than normal. I have no doubts that they are far from standard but in order to achieve standard you have to work a little. I do intend to cross some of these with the german line and I'll cull like crazy. The german line is not as perfect as you might assume. I got some eggs from banjoejoe and they were not the prettiest things I've ever seen. Very Porous and very difficult to hatch. They need help. Inbreeding will also dilute the line. They need fresh blood. This will be a work in progress. You have to start somewhere.

 

[kathyinmo]

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Porous eggs is not due to the strain they come from. My flock is now closed, and I will be using "inbreeding." They are far from needing fresh blood, in my opinion. Maybe in another 50 years, if things take a downward trend, I would consider it.

By the way, Gabbard farms is known for having hatchery quality stock.

 

[janchilds]

I would be curious as to how many birds it takes to be a closed flock? How do you breed a limited number of birds and keep them from being too linebred?

I am hatching out eggs from top breeders now and really want to know how long before I need to look for outcrosses to rejuvenate my birds.

Thanks!

 

[OSUman]

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there are different techniques that are used, im on a computer other then my own or else i would link some. Theres spiral breeding, and i forget the names of the others.

 

[Shireshome]

Just thought I'd pop in here and tell you guys how much I LOVE these birds. I have never seen these before this evening, not this strain anyway. But wow they are gorgeous, congratulations.

Kathy you always have the prettiest birds, how do you do it??
Now I must go find DH and remind him I HAVE to move back to the country soon so I can have some chickens.....

 

[Matt1616]

Barred Rocker, I am glad you didn't take offense to what I said because that certainly is not my intention.
I believe you may have gotten some bad information or assumed the wrong thing about what is commonly called the "German Line" on this website. I would like to tell you the whole story so that you don't move forward with your New Hampshire project with the wrong idea.
I would believe that most if not all of the people that post regularly on this site that have the "German Line" of NH got them from Kathy.
Well, Kathy as well as myself got our birds from Doug Akers. Doug got his pure German line from the man that went Germany and got them. When he got them he seen that the German hens didn't quite fit the standard so he went and found the best exhibition line of American NH's that he could find and crossed the two lines to try improve the color of the hens. When I got mine from Doug I got a group of the pure Germans and a group of the crossed ones and Kathy did the same. So what I am trying to tell you is these birds have a great deal of genetic diversity because of the various crosses that have already been made. With the pure line and the crossed line Kathy and I could breed for many, many years without ever having any inbreeding problems.
I can't speak for banjoejoe but I have about 50 eggs in the incubator right now from these lines and have yet to see a porous egg. I hatched my first batch this past weekend and they popped out of the shell like champs and are big robust chicks, some of the healthiest I have ever hatched. My fertility rate is great and the hatch rate of fertile eggs is 100%. The ones that have already hatched are the pure Germans but I have many of both lines in the bator. The pure German hens are the best layers that I have ever owned and I have had hatchery/production lines all my life. They lay an egg apiece every day. The crossed ones are not quite as consistent but very close.
The other thing is that there is some real misinformation on the Internet about linebreeding chickens. It is not the kiss of death that some people make it out to be. If it was most if not all lines of exibition/show poultry would have ceased to exist long ago because it has always been common practice in the show world. In most instances it would take many years to get into trouble.
Again, I'm not telling you what to do but I would not cross those 2 lines as the Gabbard line has nothing to offer the German line as far as improvement. It would be like breeding a high quality pure bred Labrador Retreiver to a half Bull Dog/half Labrador and expecting the offspring to be as good as the pure bred Labrador. It won't happen. I see people do this all the time and end up spending a bunch of time and money and never getting back to where they started.
I don't mean any of this in a malicious way, I am just trying to help.

 

[liv4fun]

matt,


could you post some pictures of your pure line stock of new hampshires?

 

[catdaddyfro]

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No offense taken. When I got them I wondered where Gabbard farms got theirs. However if you notice the sun is shining directly on them so they appear lighter than normal. I have no doubts that they are far from standard but in order to achieve standard you have to work a little. I do intend to cross some of these with the german line and I'll cull like crazy. The german line is not as perfect as you might assume. I got some eggs from banjoejoe and they were not the prettiest things I've ever seen. Very Porous and very difficult to hatch. They need help. Inbreeding will also dilute the line. They need fresh blood. This will be a work in progress. You have to start somewhere.

Well I'm with Matt1616 on his responses too and I'd like to add a few pointers in here also and hopefully no offense will be taken 'cause that's not my goal but just to shed a little light on some of the topics here.

First of all the egg porosity is more than likely due to a diet lacking some nutritional value of some sort, it has nothing to do with the breed/line of certain hens; OR it may be the age of the hens too, as older hens do frequently produce porous and less viable hatching eggs. Oh also too, its also a known fact that this time of the year is tough on the ol gals and even the best of the best hens are more apt to lay a more porous egg esp. right before, during, and after the molt season(which is daylight triggered) which is going on right at this juncture in time, the shortest daylight hours of the year was just today.

On the linebreeding/inbreeding of strains These German lines do not need additional blood added to boost up the line as indicated. If you'll go over to the Good Sheppard Barred Rock thread and read up on this line that Frank Reese has here they are direct desendants from the world renown E.B. Thompson lines that have had NO new blood added to them since the 1920's. (they are known to be some of the best out there too) Now that should say something about not having to add blood to an already established line. The way that linebreeding/inbreeding goes all wrong is by breeding bad traits/faults into the line by poor judgment during the culling process. Its an old folk- tale about having to throw something else into the "mix" ever' so often(for good measure) to up the quality by genetic diversity/NOPE, they sure don't do it with heirloom plant and veggie seeds either, that's why they are called heirloom as they are the same ones handed down time and time again, same difference in bird strains too. They are your birds do as you wish, but I'm gonna concentrate on culling and breeding the best to best out of my bunch and get my strain the way I think is the best and the way I like/want them to be.

And to end on this note yes you are correct, the German line does have it faults BUT they are the best that have been posted on (here/anywhere else I've looked for them) to date. I've asked numerous times for somebody to step up and prove me and others on here wrong, haven't had any takers yet. We're still waiting on that to occur. So, I'll say that's what we've got to work with and to tell you the truth, a lot of the hype against them I do believe to be is a little bit jealousy driven too, that's my opinion and I'll stand beside that too till proven otherwise. Seems the one "feller" that had/has the most negativity to say on these German lines either has a vendetta against them, Mr. Akers, Germans in general(just saying), and has been asked numerous times to step up and show off WHAT exactly a SOP New Hampshire is supposed to be/look like (even if it is a bantam) has yet to do it. So all we get ever so often is a critical remark about this or that and no facts or proof to back up the gab. Still hope no offense is taken by anyone JUST SAYIN' it IS what it IS.

Jeff