Ghost predator is wiping out my flock. Help!

[chickortreat]

I would not waste time burying a dog that attacked my chickens. Buzzards have to eat too.

 

[jdywntr]

I have bigger problems now. Sunday morning (while was out of town) my son awoke to find a chocolate lab massacring my flock. In his effort to run and get a gun he tripped and broke two toes. He did manage get a pistol (my rifle was locked up because I was out of town) and even with two broken toes he was able to get a couple shots off and wound the dog. I had to drive 150 miles to get home to take care of my son and found 13 dead chickens, one of which was half a mile away down the road in the front yard of a another house. After thinking it over it guessed that there must have been more then one dog, the one who stayed and kept on killing and the one who carried that one rooster off down the road. I was not sure, but last night I caught video of two large dogs attacking one of my poultry pens on my trail cam. The two dogs belong to the house down the road where I found that one chicken. Now I am in a quandary about what to do. My relationship with my neighbors is very important to me and I do not want to jeopardize it. I could just wait for the dogs to come back, shoot them and bury the bodies and nobody would know the difference. But if it were my dogs doing this, I would appreciate it if I were given the chance to save their lives. But if I go down and show them the video proof of their what their dogs are doing and photos of the pile of dead chickens, they are bound to know that it was me that shot their other dog. Now if it were me, I would be completely understanding if a person shot my dog while he was killing their chickens. Heck, I have even terminated some my own dogs for chicken killing. But some people love their dogs more then their own children these days and who knows what they would do if they found out my son shot their dog.

This is a hard one because, if handled wrongly, it could create a life long feud with my neighbor and that can make life really miserable. People use to be really understanding of these things, but now day you never know.

I agree you are in a hard spot since the dog was only injured. I recently caught a neighbors 2 dogs in the pasture after they killed a few of my chickens. I was a few acres away from the house and didn't have a gun with me (I haven't made that mistake since) so I spent about 1.5 hours chasing them around. The neighbors were notified and said they will keep them chained. We also asked a local cop about what the "right thing" to do would be. He said, "kill them" but officially, notify owner, notify sheriff, if it happens again its a felony.

At this point, I would check with officials to see if your son was within his rights to shoot the dog and then let all of your neighbors know that you have had a problem with dogs on your property(not necessarily that one was shot) and will exercise your right to protect it if any dogs arrive.

I agree that things are different these days. Luckily where we live everyone is pretty old school. I love my dogs like they were kids but if I had a dog that was a danger to others or their animals, it would not be allowed to run loose. My husband and I had a discussion after the dog incident and he said he didn't think he could shoot a dog. I said I could. These are my birds and I will do what I need to in order to protect them.
Good luck and sorry for your losses and your son's injuries.

I would not waste time burying a dog that attacked my chickens. Buzzards have to eat too.

Carrion attracts more than buzzards. I'd bury it to keep the ******* coyote we are having problems with away.

 

[Jungleexplorer]

Here in Texas the law is that, if your pet leaves your property, it is fair game and can be trapped or shot and you are liable for any damage or injury it causes. I know this because a friend of mine had a dog that got away a year ago. he went to the pound every day looking for it for 3 weeks but in the end the dog ended up being hit by a car. some idiot saw the dog get hit and saw the dog dying in the middle of the road and he went to try to pick the dog up and move it out of the road and got bit. He then sued my friend for 15,000 dollars and won. My friend tried to argue that the dog dug his way out of the backyard and that he did everything possible to find it. But the judge just said that, "It's your dog. You are liable." My friend took all the tags off his other 2 dogs and said he will never put tags on them again.

 

[Jungleexplorer]

I have a question. What is wrong with American Dogs? I don;t mean to be offensive but, I lived in central and south America for over 20 years in rural areas where everyone, including myself, had free roaming dogs and free range chickens. Most of the dogs were scrawny mutts that look half starved to death and yet I can't remember a single time in 20 years of having lost a single chicken to a neighbors dog. Of course all of those people in those countries understood the far greater importance of livestock that produced food, over dogs which are just pets for enjoyment. They would immediately kill their own dog if they saw it chase their chickens. That is just the Law of Country living.

But ever since I moved out to rural Texas and started raising free range chickens, I have noticed how American dogs have an almost uncontrollable desire to chase chickens. It is very confusing to me because, of the many dogs I owned in South America that ran free along side my huge flock of over 100 chickens, I never saw them ever show a desire to chase chickens, even though my dogs were hunting dogs. But every dog that I have owned in the US has chased my chickens and killed them forcing me to get rid of them. I just don't understand it. What is wrong with American dogs? Are they just dumber then the mutts in south america or something? My wife loves dogs and is always getting new ones, even though she knows that I have a rock solid law about dogs that kill chickens, and I am going to get rid of them if they do. So to save my marriage, I built a pen to keep the dogs in. Personally, I feel it is a form of abuse to sentence a dog to a life of confinement and would rather not have a dog at all if I have to keep it in prison all it's life. But my wife has to have her dogs, so what can I do? It's either keep them penned up or shoot them.

I am glad the laws here in Texas still protect farmers right to defend their livestock. What I don't understand is people that get upset when you shoot their dog for running your livestock. I mean, you are doing them a favor. What if you did not shoot it and it killed a prize animal worth thousands of dollars and they had to pay for it, or injured a person and they got put in jail? I bet that they would have been very glad if you would have shot their dog to stop that from happening. Some American people's mentality confuses me more then stupid American dogs that won't stop chasing chickens.

Even in the Bible the law was that if your animal caused damage to someone else property or live stock, you had compensate the owner and in most case kill the offending animal. In some cases the animal had to be confined, but if it did it again, no matter what the reason was, the penalty was very high, in some cases even the death of the owner if the injury was to a human.

The bottom line is that owning animals, like dogs, that have the capacity to cause injury, damage or death, to other peoples property, livestock or life, is a HUGE responsibility and Americans need to be taught to respect and value their neighbor's property, livestock and life more then their pets.

Here is a good example of how a good neighbor should react when their pet kills their neighbors animals. A few years ago, my brother had a chocolate lab and a sharpie. One day when he opened the gate to his backyard they both rushed passed him, ran out and killed his neighbors cat right in front of her. My brother immediately put the dogs in the car,took them to pound and had them put down and took the death certificates and handed them to the neighbor within the hour. That is the right way to handle the situation when you value your relationship with your neighbor more then your stupid pets.

I feel the question is not about what you should do if your neighbors dogs kill your chickens; it's about what your neighbor should do. The people in other countries seem to know how to handle this situation a lot better then some here in the US. I guess it might because they live a very subsistence lifestyle and have a much better grasp of what is really important. They know that the loss of a dog will cause sadness, but the loss of their chickens might mean starvation. And because they know this, they respect their neighbors livestock as much as their own.

I have to go talk to my neighbor today and I am really hoping that they have a good respectful and reasonable mentality like the people in south america. A big part of me just wants to shoot, shovel and shut up, but that would not be treating my neighbor like I would like to be treated. Sometime you just have to do the honorable thing, even if other people don't respond honorably.

 

[centrarchid]

Nothing is wrong with American dogs. Problem is more a function of dog husbandry. You need to get out more. I am American from southern Indiana with experience very much like what you describe for South America. A good number of dogs where running about continously with exposure to livestock of all sorts realized. Most but not all dogs where raised in close proximity to livestock. When dogs were problematic, they were disciplined by parties that new their way around dogs and livestock. Most folks these days, including those keeping free-range poultry are no longer so knowledgeable and are prone to over react. Most folks living in area also had a given type of livestock including chickens so controlling dog was effectively a communal effort, not just of one owner. Our chickens and dogs where valued and over reacting and been seen to do so would get dirty looks at best by neighbors. Over reacting here appears to be norm. Over reacting has a lot in common with beating kids; poor anger management. What complicates matters is dogs are confined most of time and when released are bundles of energy that increased potential for problems when poorly disciplined dogs to encounter livestock. They also have a lot less experience with all sorts of livestock.

We used to keep chickens free-range oftern a good 1/2 mile from any buildings and dogs made that possible. Dogs kept predators from having continous efforts near poultry and would interfere when bird was caught by predator. American games did best with this system although production breeds also benefitted.

 

[Jungleexplorer]

Nothing is wrong with American dogs. Problem is more a function of dog husbandry. You need to get out more. I am American from southern Indiana with experience very much like what you describe for South America. A good number of dogs where running about continously with exposure to livestock of all sorts realized. Most but not all dogs where raised in close proximity to livestock. When dogs were problematic, they were disciplined by parties that new their way around dogs and livestock. Most folks these days, including those keeping free-range poultry are no longer so knowledgeable and are prone to over react. Most folks living in area also had a given type of livestock including chickens so controlling dog was effectively a communal effort, not just of one owner. Our chickens and dogs where valued and over reacting and been seen to do so would get dirty looks at best by neighbors. Over reacting here appears to be norm. Over reacting has a lot in common with beating kids; poor anger management. What complicates matters is dogs are confined most of time and when released are bundles of energy that increased potential for problems when poorly disciplined dogs to encounter livestock. They also have a lot less experience with all sorts of livestock.

We used to keep chickens free-range oftern a good 1/2 mile from any buildings and dogs made that possible. Dogs kept predators from having continous efforts near poultry and would interfere when bird was caught by predator. American games did best with this system although production breeds also benefitted.

While you may have some valid points, your statement about me needing to get out more could not be more off base. I can say that, unless you have met someone like Jeff Corwin of Animal Planet, you will never meet a more traveled person then myself. I have traveled and lived in eight countries in the last thirty years. From the Arctic coast of northern Canada to the jungles of the Amazon and everywhere in between. I speak four languages fluently and several dialects.

You may try to excuse American dog's behavior by blaming it on bad husbandry, but where that argument fails completely is, that it assumes that the rural people of Central and South America are better and more diligent in teaching their dogs. The truth is that they pay little or no attention to their dogs at all and barley even feed them. But you may have a valid point about exposure. Those dogs grow up in continues exposure to chickens, so that may account for some of it. I think there is a different reason though, because I raised my Irish Setter from a puppy with continues exposure to my chickens and it has been a struggle from day one. The whole family has continually tried to teach the dog not to chase chickens from the day we got him (6 wks old) with no success. Even shock collars will not deter him. He sees a chicken, he chases it. And this has been my experience with several different breeds of Dogs I have owned here in the US.

So, acknowledging the fact that I have owned many dogs in Central and South America that I successfully trained to live along side my chickens with no problem, You have to admit that it is not a case of bad husbandry or exposure. I believe it is a genetic problem rather then an environmental or husbandry problem. All the dogs I owned in Central and South America (and what other people owned) were all Heinz 57 mutts. But all the dogs I have owned here in the US have been mostly pure breeds. I believed that because of all the targeted genetic breeding to produce specific characteristics that has gone on in the US has produced dogs with an imbalance of instincts. If you do a google search for "dogs attacking chickens" you will find that labrador retrievers are involved in chicken attacks five to one of any other breed. This may be in part because the labrador retriever is one the most popular family dogs in America because of it's docility and intelligence, but Labrador Retrievers were also breed initially for bird hunting (more specifically, Ducks). Labrador Retrievers have webbed feet to allow them to swim better and thicker fur to keep them warm in cold water. They love water and love to retrieve. All these characteristics were specifically targeted when the Labrador Retriever was being engineered, including the uncontrollable instinct to go after birds. Now take a look at what breed of dog I have that I am having trouble with, the Irish Setter. Take a big wild guess what it was breed for. That is right, bird hunting. Irish Setters were bred to hunt game birds like quail, pheasant and qrouse. They are very energetic and almost tireless because they were engineered to run back and forth continually in front of the hunters looking for birds. They also can be used for ducks as they love water and have a thicker coat, but do not have the webbed feet like the Labrador and so swim slower.

My point is this; most people in this country do not own Hienz 57 mutts. People mostly own pure breed or 50/50 mix dogs. Almost all of the most common breeds of large dog that people own in this country are dogs that were bred for hunting, mostly birds. The Labrador Retriever, Golden Retriever, Irish Setter (all other setters as well), the Cocker Spaniel (and other Spaniels), the English Pointer (and other Pointers), and many, many others were all bred specifically for hunting birds. All of these dogs that Americans own as pets were specifically bred to have an unbalanced and overwhelming instinct to hunt, chase and kill birds. There is nothing wrong with this, if the dog is treated like a hunting dog and not a pet. My dad was a professional bird dog trainer that trained several champion bird dogs. His favorite breed was the German Shorthaired Pointer. He was an expert in this field. He would always say, "A Bird Dog must always be tied up or penned unless hunting. A good Bird Dog will hunt birds until it dies if you do not tie it up."

So this is what is wrong with American dogs; they were bred for hunting and people treat them like pets. It is more of a societal problem in that Americans are completely ignorant of the dog they own and what it was bred for.

 

[tellynpeep]

I would contact the owners. I have had two different neighbors' dogs kill chickens. One pair has killed probably over a dozen of my girls over the years. The owner couldn't care less. Legal action (multiple times) has had to be taken.

My other neighbor's dogs killed one of my hens last winter. He felt AWFUL, was hugely apologetic, and offered my free plowing/bulldozing etc (he is a landscaper) as compensation. He tries hard, has a radio-electric fence (he was out of town and the dog-sitter didn't put the dogs' collars on when the incident happened) and is in general a great neighbor.

So, I'd talk to the dogs' owners. They may not know their dogs are savage killers. I know I'd be surprised AND want to know if my dog did that.

Good luck. IME, the dogs are worse than any wild predator.

 

[centrarchid]

Dogs genetics can be part of equation and certainly some pure breds are a bit more inclined to be single minded but most of the dogs my family and others used used were in fact pure and hunting dogs. We bred our own dogs and kept many from birth till death of old age so had good handle on lifetime potentials. We did not consider ourselves as trainers nor did we charge specifically for service but even today I can take a dog of probably any breed / history (including your Irish Setter) and get it to be safe around poultry. I do not claim to be trainer but can get job done.

Village curs you encountered that were likely mostly yellow and averaged maybe 45 lbs are the basis from which most existing breeds are derived and do not generally repressent any kind of mutt produced by mixing breeds. This may make for a more flexible behavioral set but even within over bred breeds individuals exist that retain that level of flexibility.

That barely working by people around dogs might be extended to farmers with working farm dogs. The training is actually very hard to pick up on unless observing the interactions for extended periods of time and over the training of many dogs.

Labradors also repressent the breed most likely to be kept successfully with poultry. It is a pure numbers game on all ends.

 

[Jungleexplorer]

Dogs genetics can be part of equation and certainly some pure breds are a bit more inclined to be single minded but most of the dogs my family and others used used were in fact pure and hunting dogs. We bred our own dogs and kept many from birth till death of old age so had good handle on lifetime potentials. We did not consider ourselves as trainers nor did we charge specifically for service but even today I can take a dog of probably any breed / history (including your Irish Setter) and get it to be safe around poultry. I do not claim to be trainer but can get job done.

Village curs you encountered that were likely mostly yellow and averaged maybe 45 lbs are the basis from which most existing breeds are derived and do not generally repressent any kind of mutt produced by mixing breeds. This may make for a more flexible behavioral set but even within over bred breeds individuals exist that retain that level of flexibility.

That barely working by people around dogs might be extended to farmers with working farm dogs. The training is actually very hard to pick up on unless observing the interactions for extended periods of time and over the training of many dogs.

Labradors also repressent the breed most likely to be kept successfully with poultry. It is a pure numbers game on all ends

Yes, within any breed of dog, you will have smarter and dumber dogs. Some that are more teachable and some that are unteachable. I am speaking in the general sense though when I says that, because most American dogs are specific breeds of dogs that were bred to hunt birds, they have an unbalanced stronger instinct to hunt birds then do the regular non-breed dogs that are common in rural areas of Central and South America, and are therefore much more likely to chase and kill chickens regardless of husbandry or exposure. Again this is a general statement, not a specific statement. There are always exception to rules, but that does not mean that the rule does not exist. To emphasize my point, just let me say that, in 20 years of raising chickens in Central and South America, I (or anyone else I knew) never lost a single chicken to mine, or anyone else's dogs that were all running free. But, here in the US, I have lost 23 chickens since the beginning of October, most of which were killed by domestic dogs (pets). Couple that with the fact that I can find thousands of other examples of other Americans that are having the same problem and I think the evidence is overwhelmingly in my favor when I say that there is a problem with American dogs.

I am not saying that the dogs are bad or defective. I am just saying that because most Americans don't know or are willing to acknowledge that they own a dog with "special needs", they are not willing to take the proper measures to make sure their pet does not get into trouble and they get mad at other people that are just defending their livestock. Americans for the most part have a huge emotional response when it comes to their dogs. Whether consciously or subconsciously, they tend to regard their dogs of having the same sentient understanding and powers of free will and choice as they do. They fail to understand or blatantly refuse to acknowledge that their dogs are strictly creatures of instinct, that will follow their instinct, unless trained (if possible) to do otherwise. This leads to a lot of confusion and problems. I am just saying!

 

[Jungleexplorer]

Wow! You will never guess what happened? Here I was stressed about whether to go and talk to my neighbor about his dogs and risk making an enemy or just shoot, shovel and shut up. I decided to pray and ask God to provide a solution. Well, both dogs were hit and killed by cars yesterday. I am not kidding! They are both laying dead on the road, the one that killed the 13 chickens and my son wounded, and the one I caught on video attacking the pen. And NO, it was not me who hit them. There is no need for my to go and talk to my neighbor now. The problem has been solved. Thank you Lord!