Gravity feeder for water- hot climate

[CabritaChicks]

I went to the site you provided, and this is on the webpage:

Edit: Sorry the other you provided is for humans.

 

[Al Gerhart]

Thank you for the studies! I have a lot of reading to do.

For the record, I usually do warn people not to use ACV in their waterers if galvanized. Bio availability is everything in elements. I worked with a bunch of pHD guys and one industrial hygienist a decade or so back on some research so I have some understanding of the science.

 

[Al Gerhart]

I went to the site you provided, and this is on the webpage:
View attachment 4127253

Edit: Sorry the other you provided is for humans.

I should have scrolled down further, they do warn about the parrot issue, I was wrong.

 

[CabritaChicks]

All birds are vulnerable—it’s all about exposure. Their systems are unique and can’t excrete heavy metals like zinc quickly enough. Parrots tend to get most of the attention here, but chickens are affected too.

I’ve got some great graphics from my seminars that explain this, but honestly, without me talking over them, they’re just pictures.

And hey—when I was growing up, people thought it was totally fine for pregnant women to smoke and drink. We’ve come a long way since then (well… mostly. Europe still hangs on a bit- I mean my friend still puts oozo on the gums of her kids when teething). Chickens might not have had silver spoons or helicopter parents, but they deserve better now.

By the way, I really like your feeders—a lot. More science without going too crazy is always the sweet spot.

 

[Al Gerhart]

I want to stress, I worked for my credentials- 8 years schooling, and 12 in the field. I run a non-profit (a foundation) which means I dont sell anything- I help birds across the world at mostly my own expense, now I have only 107 ongoing special needs patients, and I see 5 birds a week (average). (Donations only go to my research studies with my team- who actually make income- I don't receive a dime, not one cent)- which is why I have lived in so many countries.

-Which I think what got my blood pressure high.

So I dont 'sell' bloodwork. But I know you sell feeders. I just dont agree with them for water- especially high heat- and in my case- salt environments (I live on the sea).

If you want some very light reading, I can think of three studies- chicken specific, parrots are more susceptible by a long run:

1. Effects of Increasing Zinc Supplementation in Drinking Water on Growth and Thyroid Function in Broiler Chicks

• Summary: This study examined the effects of adding zinc sulfate to the drinking water of broiler chicks at concentrations of 0, 125, 500, and 1000 mg Zn/L over 60 days. Chicks receiving higher concentrations (500 and 1000 mg Zn/L) exhibited reduced body weight gain, decreased feed efficiency, and impaired thyroid function, indicating signs of zinc toxicity.
• Link: https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/12448974/

2. Toxicological Effect of Zinc on Liver of Broiler Chicks

• Summary: This research assessed the impact of varying doses of zinc (300, 600, and 900 mg/kg body weight) administered over 21 days on the liver of broiler chicks. The study found dose-dependent liver damage, including necrosis, hypertrophy, bile duct proliferation, and inflammation, confirming zinc's hepatotoxic effects at elevated levels.
• Link: https://eglj.springeropen.com/articles/10.1186/s43066-020-00028-w

3. Toxic Effects of High Concentrations of Zinc Oxide in the Diet of the Chick and Laying Hen

• Summary: This study investigated the effects of high dietary concentrations of zinc oxide (2000 to 6000 mg/kg) on chicks and laying hens. Findings included poor growth, gizzard erosion, pancreatic lesions, and, at the highest dose, dissecting aneurysms, highlighting the toxic potential of excessive zinc intake through feed.
• Link: https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/6616303/

These studies underscore the importance of monitoring zinc levels in poultry environments, particularly in drinking water, to prevent toxicity and ensure optimal health and productivity in chickens.\

Some will say 'those are very high amounts'... well consider what it is to be exposed to a toxin- not mammalian (human, dog, cattle, horse) day after day (even in smaller amounts- can your body cant excrete it). You get lethargic, immune compromised.

Parrots are far worse- they can only have much lower levels but unfortunately are treated similar to chickens. That is why I spared no expense to create a environment which my parrots can thrive- but I also utilize many of the practices for chickens.

If you would like more studies- I can bring up my old workbooks (might take me a second as they are burried with old my textbooks from university and certification courses, haha)
.

Oh, I got so busy, I just got around to reading the studies or in one case, the abstract as it was all that was available.


Your first study that you provided stated this:
“Sixty new born male broiler chicks were randomly allotted into one of four treatment groups and fed for60 d. Zinc (Zn) was added into drinking water at the levels of 0,125, 500, and 1000 mg Zn/L. Body weight gain were significantly higher and feed efficiency were significantly lower in chicks supplemented with 125 mg Zn/L compared with chicks supplemented with500 or 1000 mg Zn/L at the end of the experiment. Serum Zn concentration linearly increased with the increasing level of Zn intake. Serum triiodothyronine and thyroxine levels and the diameters of follicles of thyroid gland were significantly reduced with high levels (500 and 1000 mg Zn/L) of Zn intake at the end of the experiment. It was concluded that chick receiving 1000 mg Zn/L asZnSO4.7H2O in drinking water showed signs of Zn toxicity. “

Yet, your reply stated in the summary:
"Summary: This study examined the effects of adding zinc sulfate to the drinking water of broiler chicks at concentrations of 0, 125, 500, and 1000 mg Zn/Lover 60 days. Chicks receiving higher concentrations (500 and 1000 mgZn/L) exhibited reduced body weight gain, decreased feed efficiency,and impaired thyroid function, indicating signs of zinc toxicity. “

See the difference? The abstract stated that chicks with only 125 mg Zn intake had lower weight gain and less (lower) feed efficiency than the chicks with 500 to 1000 mg Zn/L intake. But the Summary quote said the opposite, that 500 and 1000mg Zn/L caused reduced weight gain and feed efficiency.

Which is correct?

The abstract does state that the higher the Zn levels the lower the T3 and T4 (abbreviations for triiodothyronine and thyroxine levels) which are stress and welfare indicators. It seems that both quotes provided state that 1000 mg is the upper limit, past or even at indicate toxicity. Other studies measured the effect of temperature on birds raised free range versus confined and found the levels of T3 and T4 not to be indicative of stress.

This is new science to me, and I need to learn more about the benefits/toxicity curve and how serum triiodothyronine and thyroxine levels are woven into the effects. But the study clearly states that T 3 and T4 are significantly reduced with high (500 to 1000) Zn levels. That is completely at odds with the Summary you quoted. Not saying you did anything wrong but perhaps the author of the study used AI to write the abstract?

The second study...

First daily Zn needs are 50 to 100 mg per kg of body weight. Natural food will have between 15 and 100 mg available. The levels used in that study were 300, 600, and 900 mg,three to six times the recommended dose, six to twelve times the recommended dose, and nine to eighteen times the recommended dose.You did state that the amounts given were massive to cause the damage. And the conclusion of that study, which they wanted to be read as they actually published more of the study, was:

“ Therefore, it is necessary to take a normal dose of zinc, which helps to improve the proper growth of the chicks.”

Nothing to argue about there.

The third study, well, they studied even high amounts of zinc, 40 to 120 times the recommended daily dose. Why bother to do the study if we already know high levels of zinc is not good? If 1.5 mg per liter of water is the top recommendation, which is 15 ppm, how do studies that use 2320 ppm show only a temporary reduction in water intake stack up against the third study? https://www.researchgate.net/public..._Excess_Zinc_on_Water_Consumption_in_Chickens

In the end from that study, we see that too much zinc can reduce the amount of water intake in a chicken if given in ridiculous amounts, but that the harm is limited and the chickens rebound quickly. And too much is indeed a ridiculous amount so monitoring water boils down to common sense which I believe we both would agree upon.

Not to use galvanized water containers for water,
not to put ACV in the dang water if you do,
and if the water is foul and stinks from too much iron it probably has too much zinc and other metals in it.
So fresh, clean water is best for chickens.

I do appreciate the effort and thought you brought to this discussion.

I'm going to agree with you on the parrots. There seems to be no reason to doubt you are 100% accurate on that and given that I have no parrots......

 

[CabritaChicks]

I initially pulled the first three studies from a 2 second search and failed to find the ones that are not about chickens for consumption on water intake or weight- but about organ damage. But if you take the time to explore resources like NCBI—become a registered member to access the full breadth of research available—you’ll find hundreds of studies that shift the entire conversation. I didn’t dive deeply into those this time as it was merely an example, since this topic was thoroughly covered in my veterinary manuals during university, and reinforced in clinical practice by the heartbreaking experiences of many clients.

Just last week, I started treating chickens for zinc toxicity. Unfortunately, we were only able to save two of the healthiest 'prime' birds—the rest had to be euthanized due to the cost of treatment, and once damage sets in, it’s a direct equation: damage = amount × time + genetics. So often during necropsy or bloodwork we find they have zinc toxicity, and the accompanying organ damage. Same story of 'chickens are not well and have pasty butt, feather loss, or are poor egg producers', it also makes them more prone to infection and mite control....

She actually pulled out the phrase 'My mother smoked like a chimney and drank everyday- still lived so how did the water dish hurt them?'... okay, but that doesn't mean that the damage wasn't done and her quality of life could have been better.

Even in the wildlife rescues I've worked- we don't use galvanized, only marine grade stainless. In the end, it comes down to control versus variables in any study—and this is one variable I can absolutely control. So I’ll be sticking to non-galvanized waterers. In fact, I’m currently having one custom-made from ceramic—essentially the same material as a dinner plate, we are just working on weight reduction.

The plastic ones I purchased, I thought would be a great idea that hook up to the hose to keep it fresh- but the water in our hose comes out at 141 degrees- and the ambient temp is well in the 90's with 80+ humidity and constant salt spray. So everything degrades here, fast.

 

[Al Gerhart]

I like your thinking, control what you can.

 

[Bawkbok]

In fact, I’m currently having one custom-made from ceramic—essentially the same material as a dinner plate, we are just working on weight reduction.

Sounds like an opportunity to patent a new product to the backyard chicken audience. I, for one, would be interested.

Thanks to you and @Al Gerhart for the enlightening discussion. My quest for the perfect waterer continues.

 

[Al Gerhart]

The old days where when we used ceramic water bowls for the chickens. Heavy, hard to turn over, easy to clean, cheap, locally made usually.

Those old folks knew more than we all give them credit for.

 

[CabritaChicks]

The old days where when we used ceramic water bowls for the chickens. Heavy, hard to turn over, easy to clean, cheap, locally made usually.

Those old folks knew more than we all give them credit for.

Agreed! In this modern age, I find myself leaning into convenience and far too much education—how quickly we get used to luxury. 20 different criteria because I dont want to bend down as often (well, in my defense my back is a load of tosh). We’ve got endless knowledge at our fingertips and supposedly more free time… and still, I’m always in feeling rushed