Even though they're just mixed breeds, you can really tell that they were bred for unique feather patterns. The first one is very interesting with his hodge-podge myriad of patterns, and the Khaki barred birds look like a breed all their own!
Hackel Chickens?
- Thread starter keithallen1965
- Start date
Quote:
Not quite; Barred PRs are Black Based. There is no other base you can cross with to get non-black-based F1 offspring unfortunately.
Actually if you cross a barred rock rooster with BBR/light brown/golden/silver hen you will get barring over the pattern which will be crele. I speak from experience using barred leghorns with patterned hens to get crele in other projects in the first generation. If you use barred rock hens with patterned roosters you will end up with sexlinks which are more black based
So Barreds are actually Reccessive Black-based, instead of Extended Black-based?
Not quite; Barred PRs are Black Based. There is no other base you can cross with to get non-black-based F1 offspring unfortunately.
Actually if you cross a barred rock rooster with BBR/light brown/golden/silver hen you will get barring over the pattern which will be crele. I speak from experience using barred leghorns with patterned hens to get crele in other projects in the first generation. If you use barred rock hens with patterned roosters you will end up with sexlinks which are more black based
So Barreds are actually Reccessive Black-based, instead of Extended Black-based?
Quote:
Actually if you cross a barred rock rooster with BBR/light brown/golden/silver hen you will get barring over the pattern which will be crele. I speak from experience using barred leghorns with patterned hens to get crele in other projects in the first generation. If you use barred rock hens with patterned roosters you will end up with sexlinks which are more black based
So Barreds are actually Reccessive Black-based, instead of Extended Black-based?
No, they're extended black based.
I think people are seriously stretching the definition of Crele though. BBR x Barred makes barred birds w/color leakage, yes, but far as I've always remembered and seen - Crele is barred duckwing or partridge. The secondary feathers require some color; The females require some color.
Without the barring what you're seeing is a mostly black bird with leakage, as extended black is dominant to duckwing.
Btw - LOVE the chickens shown earlier in the thread, beautiful! Especially the saddle feathers on the first rooster.
Actually if you cross a barred rock rooster with BBR/light brown/golden/silver hen you will get barring over the pattern which will be crele. I speak from experience using barred leghorns with patterned hens to get crele in other projects in the first generation. If you use barred rock hens with patterned roosters you will end up with sexlinks which are more black based
So Barreds are actually Reccessive Black-based, instead of Extended Black-based?
No, they're extended black based.
I think people are seriously stretching the definition of Crele though. BBR x Barred makes barred birds w/color leakage, yes, but far as I've always remembered and seen - Crele is barred duckwing or partridge. The secondary feathers require some color; The females require some color.
Without the barring what you're seeing is a mostly black bird with leakage, as extended black is dominant to duckwing.
Btw - LOVE the chickens shown earlier in the thread, beautiful! Especially the saddle feathers on the first rooster.
Quote:
So Barreds are actually Reccessive Black-based, instead of Extended Black-based?
No, they're extended black based.
I think people are seriously stretching the definition of Crele though. BBR x Barred makes barred birds w/color leakage, yes, but far as I've always remembered and seen - Crele is barred duckwing or partridge. that's right. The secondary feathers require some color; The females require some color. Both of those traits separate Creles and Barred Coppers
Without the barring what you're seeing is a mostly black bird with leakage, as extended black is dominant to duckwing. That's right. In fact, Extended black base is dominant to every other base (E^R; E^WH; e+; eb; ebc; eqs; E^MB)
Btw - LOVE the chickens shown earlier in the thread, beautiful! Especially the saddle feathers on the first rooster.
So Barreds are actually Reccessive Black-based, instead of Extended Black-based?
No, they're extended black based.
I think people are seriously stretching the definition of Crele though. BBR x Barred makes barred birds w/color leakage, yes, but far as I've always remembered and seen - Crele is barred duckwing or partridge. that's right. The secondary feathers require some color; The females require some color. Both of those traits separate Creles and Barred Coppers
Without the barring what you're seeing is a mostly black bird with leakage, as extended black is dominant to duckwing. That's right. In fact, Extended black base is dominant to every other base (E^R; E^WH; e+; eb; ebc; eqs; E^MB)
Btw - LOVE the chickens shown earlier in the thread, beautiful! Especially the saddle feathers on the first rooster.
I am new to this forum and this is my first post. I chose to jump in because this topic is in my comfort zone. I have been fly fishing, fly tying and dealing in fly tying hackles / genetic hackles most of my life.
For those who are unfamiliar with the fly tying industry I will give you a quick description of what fly tyers do.
These are craftsmen and women who wrap fur and feather on fish hooks to imitate insects.
Chicken hackles are by far the most used item in the fly tyers material bin.
Fly tyers make their creations based on the sizes of standard fishing hooks which are even numbered. Most fly tyers will make the majority of insect imitation on size #10 through # 22 hooks. There is a standard hackle gauge that fly tyers use to measure chicken hackles and it parallels the sizes of fish hooks. Both the hooks and feathers follow the same rule. The lower the number the larger the hook or feather width. The higher the number the smaller the hook and feather are.
The reason that breeders have had to genetically alter chickens is simple. Most all standard breeds of chickens have feathers that are the same size, more specifically the same width. While the cape may contain feathers of various lengths if one were to stroke the feather barbules to the rear there would be little variation in the widths of the feathers. In standard breed chickens most all of the feathers will gauge out between size #8 and #12 while most of the insects to imitate are smaller.
Over the years a handful of very persistent breeders have spent decades and millions of dollars to produce chickens that will fit the needs of the fly tying industry and more recently the salon industry.
What genetic hackle breeders are chasing is a cape and saddle that will have the largest diversity of uses from one individual chicken.
Genetic capes and saddles will have a large range of different sized feathers. The top quality breeders will regularly put to market capes with feathers from size #4 to # 24 and saddles with a #12 down to #22 size range. Genetic hackle has stiff barbules and no web. The feathers are long with little taper. The hackle stems are fine and soft so they wrap onto a hook without twisting.
There is no breed of genetic hackle birds. Instead many different breeds have been altered to fit the needs of this industry.
Breeders of these hackles use a very narrow breeding selection to improve the desirable traits. The pioneers in this area of chicken farming will tell you that it takes 20 years to change a standard chicken to the quality of what is available today. This is why fly tyers will pay hundreds of dollars for capes and saddles and salons charge up to $20.00 per feather to put them in hair styles.
The other issue regarding this type of hackle from the growers perspective is that it is hard to maintain the quality. The breeding selection is so narrow that only one or two farms in the country can produce any real numbers and even then the demand far out numbers the supply.
Most all breeders of genetic hackle arrive with a similar product but through different means, all have their own secrets and they guard them well. Every Hackle farmer will have his breeding selection strategy, custom coop and cage design (most all roosters are housed in individual cages) and custom feeds to obtain their goals.
The entire process parts from normal poultry production due to the fact that normal has the goal of producing a quality egg or meat bird for the consumer while the hackle farmers product is a single high quality feather.
Breeders who have achieved this goal usually do not share their techniques nor sell eggs, chicks or mature birds.
I hope that this sheds some light into the mystery surrounding genetic hackle birds and their lack of availability.
For those who are unfamiliar with the fly tying industry I will give you a quick description of what fly tyers do.
These are craftsmen and women who wrap fur and feather on fish hooks to imitate insects.
Chicken hackles are by far the most used item in the fly tyers material bin.
Fly tyers make their creations based on the sizes of standard fishing hooks which are even numbered. Most fly tyers will make the majority of insect imitation on size #10 through # 22 hooks. There is a standard hackle gauge that fly tyers use to measure chicken hackles and it parallels the sizes of fish hooks. Both the hooks and feathers follow the same rule. The lower the number the larger the hook or feather width. The higher the number the smaller the hook and feather are.
The reason that breeders have had to genetically alter chickens is simple. Most all standard breeds of chickens have feathers that are the same size, more specifically the same width. While the cape may contain feathers of various lengths if one were to stroke the feather barbules to the rear there would be little variation in the widths of the feathers. In standard breed chickens most all of the feathers will gauge out between size #8 and #12 while most of the insects to imitate are smaller.
Over the years a handful of very persistent breeders have spent decades and millions of dollars to produce chickens that will fit the needs of the fly tying industry and more recently the salon industry.
What genetic hackle breeders are chasing is a cape and saddle that will have the largest diversity of uses from one individual chicken.
Genetic capes and saddles will have a large range of different sized feathers. The top quality breeders will regularly put to market capes with feathers from size #4 to # 24 and saddles with a #12 down to #22 size range. Genetic hackle has stiff barbules and no web. The feathers are long with little taper. The hackle stems are fine and soft so they wrap onto a hook without twisting.
There is no breed of genetic hackle birds. Instead many different breeds have been altered to fit the needs of this industry.
Breeders of these hackles use a very narrow breeding selection to improve the desirable traits. The pioneers in this area of chicken farming will tell you that it takes 20 years to change a standard chicken to the quality of what is available today. This is why fly tyers will pay hundreds of dollars for capes and saddles and salons charge up to $20.00 per feather to put them in hair styles.
The other issue regarding this type of hackle from the growers perspective is that it is hard to maintain the quality. The breeding selection is so narrow that only one or two farms in the country can produce any real numbers and even then the demand far out numbers the supply.
Most all breeders of genetic hackle arrive with a similar product but through different means, all have their own secrets and they guard them well. Every Hackle farmer will have his breeding selection strategy, custom coop and cage design (most all roosters are housed in individual cages) and custom feeds to obtain their goals.
The entire process parts from normal poultry production due to the fact that normal has the goal of producing a quality egg or meat bird for the consumer while the hackle farmers product is a single high quality feather.
Breeders who have achieved this goal usually do not share their techniques nor sell eggs, chicks or mature birds.
I hope that this sheds some light into the mystery surrounding genetic hackle birds and their lack of availability.
I had no idea, learn something new every day. Thanks for the post Fly Fisher, it was very intresting.
- Feb 25, 2011
- 351
- 12
- 186
Quote:
Very nice post!
Very nice post!
The only thing about the whole hackle chicken thing I don't get is why they kill a bird and skin it to get it's regrow-able feathers. It just makes no sense to me that if demand so outstrips the supply they'd kill one just to get the feathers from a section of back and the head/neck area. Oh sure I realize how much easier the feathers are to handle this way but my gosh.
The main reason that hackle birds are harvested is that the feathers are going to be wound onto a fishing hook. Because of this specific use one of the most important attributes of the feathers is a thin pliable center stem that winds smoothly without twisting
Regrown feathers most often are thicker and lack the qualities needed to make a quality fishing fly.
Althoug hackle farmers guard their secrets pretty well some of the bigger names in the industry have stated in interviews that most of the birds they harvest are between 9 months and 1 year old.
Regrown feathers most often are thicker and lack the qualities needed to make a quality fishing fly.
Althoug hackle farmers guard their secrets pretty well some of the bigger names in the industry have stated in interviews that most of the birds they harvest are between 9 months and 1 year old.
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