Has anyone ever actually succeeded in retraining an aggressive rooster?

[OlyChickenGuy]

Pish- Sorry I didn't get back to you sooner. One thing that has changed for me since making this thread is that I am now homeless, but still with my roosters camping in a large portion of wooded area. If your bird is young, it is completely normal for him to go from docile to aggressive, and same with a bird that has recently been rehomed. I've had birds given to me that have been angles, but in a couple of days their true colours come out and they are NOT nice at all! They are nervous, upset, frustrated- likely from the confusion of being rehomed, a new flock, and so forth. When your rooster "pretends" to attack you- he's not pretending! He's challenging you. You did the right thing by disciplining him, BUT THEN YOU DIDN'T BACK YOURSELF. You didn't have the time or patience to imply that you're not backing down. Just disciplining once isn't going to get the point across, and it's naturally for an animal to retaliate, because they're questioning if you're truly certain you want to be in that dominant role, and they WILL raise hell to make CERTAIN that you're fit to be a dominant person.

That's where my mantra of PATIENCE, PATIENCE, PATIENCE, and CONSISTENCY, CONSISTENCY, CONSISTENCY. You need to make sure that your actions are consistent, and to do so, you need to be patient. You need to understand that your bird is not used to you being the one in charge, so he's going to challenge you and ask you if you're certain about that decision. He also needs time to figure out that you mean what you say and that you intend to stay in that position. The biting is normal, and should be dealt with, and if you took the time to hold onto him and continue disciplining ( remember there's two ways to discipline: to actively disagree, such as the pokes or taps, or to simply ignore ) until he calmed down. I would recommend holding him so that he's restrained, and not actively disagreeing with him, until he calms down. REMEMBER A "CALM" ANIMAL IS NOT JUST STILL, it's not when they stop struggling that they're "calm", it's when they actually relax. Their breathing slows down, their heart slows down, their eyes aren't wide and wild, they don't squirm whenever you give them a little leeway, and it's normal for them to calm down, but rile up the moment you make to let them go, so you have to hold them again, usually a little shorter, and shorter, until they get the message that the calmer they are, the less they're being restrained and disciplined. ONCE they relax ( not as they relax, or once they stop struggling ), gently pet and massage to reward the calm behaviour. You can introduce food-treats as he becomes calmer, too.

From what I understand of your post, and from what I can gather of your relationship with your rooster, you've been lacking patience. You tried once, it backfired ( or rather, you weren't ready for the response ), you got scared, and left it at that. You let your rooster "win", ensuring that he thinks that you need to be dominated, hence the aggression and biting. If he was challenging you before, even if you were able to pick him up and cuddle him, it would have eventually escalated to this level anyway.

 

[azygous]

Wow! It's hard to believe an entire year has gone by since the start of this thread.

Hi Ky!

It's been a while since we've corresponded. Sorry you're homeless once again. Hope the boys are doing okay.

Just wanted to bring folks up to date with my rooster situation. Penrod died as a result of a broken leg, but he had sired a baby son, Izzy, before he left this world. Izzy looks exactly like his daddy, not as big yet, but at nine months, he's pretty impressive already. He inherited his dad's biting inclination, but since I knew what to do to counter it, it's not become a problem.

Izzy and I had to re-establish our relationship at the time he came into his hormones around six months. He got easily upset with me if I didn't do things according to the way he felt they should, and he would come at me, and horrors! He would stand at my feet and haul off and give my toes a peck! It was actually pretty cute and harmless, but I didn't treat his behavior that way.

I immediately would push him flat to the ground, holding his head immobile until he relaxed. Then I would release him. I wouldn't touch him again until next time he behaved badly. Then I would repeat this very simple discipline.

While his hormones were coming in, flooding his brain, making him nervous and uncertain about me and everything, I refrained from touching him. It's only been in the past five or six weeks that I've begun to handle him again, and today, for the first time, he actually came to me and wanted to be held.

So, Ky, Penrod's progeny has every sign of turning out to be every bit the gentleman roo his father turned into.

I do believe early training of a cockerel to accept domination from his human caretaker plays an important role in his ultimate behavior. But the way the cockerel is handled during the hormonal period is critical. Having gone through it all before with Izzy's daddy sure made training him a breeze.

 

[roostersandhens]

My boy Pip used to be aggressive, so I was just calm and patient with him and he decided to be nice. If you have a rooster who is very aggressive I suggest separating him from the hens for a month, it worked with my boy Gandhi.

 

[azygous]

My Izzy does very well in a separate run, though sharing a common partition. He's allowed to free-range with the hens for a couple hours most days. I believe this heads off the tendency for a rooster to become overly possessive of the flock. I also seems to reinforce that I'm the one in control of his access to the hens.

When Izzy becomes annoying to the girls and they are great at objecting to his attentions when they get too much, I herd him back into his run. This worked out well with Izzy's dad, and he became a very gentle, mannerly rooster, and didn't over-mate the hens.

 

[Farmer Viola]

This thread has been so amazingly informative, thank you Oly and Azygous! I also read your blog Oly, specifically the posts about roosters and crowing were so useful, thank you. By the way, I also watch the Dog Whisperer and I had recently been talking to my DH about applying the same ideas of dominance and calmness to my rooster. I found it so cool/ironic that you recommend Ceasar Millan! I have a couple questions about my specific situation, if you have time..

I have raised hens in the past, and this year I'm raising a rooster for the first time. I brooded them indoors and they had a lot of interaction with me, have always been very comfortable around me. I had a bunch of roosters, but now just 1 main guy to 6 hens.

In the end, there were 3 roosters crowing. I re-homed the top and bottom roosters, keeping the middle guy. He is a gentleman rooster named Donatello, wing dancing and tid-bitting his ladies. I have seen him "try" to take a hen by force but she wasn't having it, and he didn't even chase her too bad. I would like to think he is respectful and only gets on squatters.

He used to come sit in my lap. Around 3 mos old, once he bit my hand as I reached out towards him. My reaction was to slap him backward a little bit, in the chest, I just pushed his body back. It scared him, and me, and he never ever bit me again. I am more careful about how my hands approach him now, I think I startled him and he just bit me out of reaction, not aggression. I also reacted. At the time, I felt that it was good for him to recognize my dominance and wasn't worried about it.

Well, he's 5 mos old now, and he always watches me from the side. I think this is fearful body language. I do not want him to be afraid of me. He will also move right out of my way if I walk in his path, he high tails it out of there. I have made a point to walk "through" him but never challenge him past that. Sometimes when I am sitting in the grass with the girls, I also think that he wing-drops me. which I used to see the roosters do to each other as a sign of dominance. Or intimidation? I don't like him doing that to me. I will usually walk toward him if I see it.

Today I tried picking him up for the first time in hmm.. 1 month? Since he started crowing I backed off my cuddling. I read on here that cuddling and preening is submissive behavior, so I stopped. I think I just need to be more conscious of my actions. anyway. He freaked out at first (I cornered him to catch him, a short chase) and I put his neck/head to the ground like a dominant rooster would do. Is this bad to do since he is not aggressive in the first place? I felt that I wanted to establish myself after reading your blog, whereas before, maybe he wasn't clear on where we stood. So, pinned him a little bit, did not hurt him, then held him for a good 10-15 mins and petted his head. he was 'purring' at some points, even allowing me to shield his vision with my arm and relax. dang I was impressed. I am going to have to pick him up more often now.

he used to take treats from my hand hungrily, first in line, but now he doesn't. He lets all the girls eat and stands back. he will still eat out of my hand if the girls aren't fighting for it. he always lets them have it first. should I make cuddle time his only special treat time, or should I try to include him in the girls' treats? He seems to think it is his duty to stand there and watch them eat, taking nothing. or is he afraid to?

I guess I just want to know how I should proceed. he has been crowing for a month, he's 5mos now, and I believe this is the most intense hormonal time for him. I want to make sure I do things right without over doing it. I question if the dominance things I did to him were 'too much' since he was not even aggressive in the first place. he's always been nice. but I think he is fearful and I would like us to have a good relationship.

 

[OlyChickenGuy]

Viola- Your desire to express and establish dominance is good, as it gets your birds used to your presence as a no-nonsense and consistent flock leader. However, both my and Millan's techniques are not intended to be about strict negative reinforcement, which is what it sounds like you have been doing ( no holding or cuddling for over a month?? ). Your boy needs positive reinforcement to express that though you're unwavering about your dominance, you're also kind and compassionate. You want to be seen not only as not an option for challenging, but as a source of safety and comfort, too. Any time your rooster is being a good boy, cuddles abound! Hug him, pet him, preen him, love him! Preening is a mutual experience- yes, submissive birds TEND to preen dominant birds MORE, but it also releases bonding hormones and helps to build and maintain trusting relationships in birds. Also keep in mind that chickens, unlike parrots, don't have many ways to preen the feathers on their head and neck, so you helping them out makes them a great deal more comfortable during moults.

As for treats- if he's being good, give him treats! Dominant roosters naturally tend to stand back and let others eat first ( he's dominant to your hens, so he's inviting them to eat, and making sure they get something ), so you may want to have one-on-one cuddle and treat time with him after the hens have been given treats. Holding him while giving treats will help build a bond and trust, while also associating you with positive things.

It is NOT uncommon or unusual for roosters to become unbearably neurotic, nervous, and anxious between about 5 months and 2 years- this is when hormones rage, and the rooster has an instinct to try to claim his flock, challenge established leaders, breed, and essentially find his place in the world. They become flighty, nervous, screamy, bitey- it's all normal, and it all needs extra attention paid to establishing your dominant-yet-safe role. You want to be dominant always, but also being seen as calm, friendly, fun, and safe are also necessary for building a positive relationship with your bird. He needs your direction and grounding to help him through this tough time in his life, and he needs you with him. He needs structure, boundaries, limitations- BOTH disagreements with poor behaviour, AND agreements with good behaviour. Always reward him for being calm and gentle, and always discipline him for being aggressive, and redirect or distract from nervous behaviours.

Walking towards and "through" birds is a good general exercise for dominance and trust. Don't alter your walking path, just expect your birds to respect your movements. If they don't move you can either nudge them out of the way, or just step over them ( albeit, be careful not to step ON them if you choose the latter ). Not moving out of the way doesn't merit aggressive correction- small reminders will work. A small poke, a nudge. If they actively challenge, however, is when you would take a more direct correction method like the pinning-the-head-to-the-ground. Remember that these are CORRECTIONS and DISAGREEMENTS with negative behaviour, not just general exercises. You should only bother or correct your pet if he is actively doing something that you don't like. Randomly pinning your bird teaches them little, granted it will teach them to be tolerant of the action, but that's about it.

I generally correct rooster-dances and crowing that happen near me. If a rooster challenges another rooster next to me, I'll give them a short chase, or push them away from each other and bop them both on the head. If a rooster crows right next to me, I'll do the same.

I think your establishing and maintaining dominance is a great idea, but DO NOT forget cuddles, treats, and positive reinforcement. Also don't forget that you have only JUST NOW entered into the awkward, hormonal, neurotic years of your beloved boy's life. He will need a great deal of both positive and negative reinforcement right now, and you will need to be VERY patient with him for quite some time, but if you are able to work through this period with him, you will have a loving, loyal, life-long friend.

 

[subhanalah]

Ky will be back to the thread as soon as his friend gets his laptop fixed.

Meanwhile, I can coach you.

You need to work daily with both your roo and the neurotic silkie. Begin each session, and I'd do it at least twice a day and more if possible, by picking up and holding the bantam roo. Rule One: Never run away from a rooster! Stand your ground. Dress your daughter in long denim pants and rubber boots so she won't get hurt. But she needs to stand her ground! 

Pick up the roo in the football hold and carry him around, or just sit with him quietly in your lap for fifteen minutes or longer. As Ky likes to do when he's training a tyrant, watch a movie together! He will not poop on you.

Right after doing that, put him back in the pen, and approach the silkie with some food or a treat in your hand. Hold it out to her and wait for her to come eat it from your hand. Don't toss it to her. Make her eat from your hand!

When I was training my neurotic roo, he only got his scratch grain ration and treats each day if he ate them from my hand. After a week or so, when your silkie can eat from your hand calmly, slowing touch her gently as she eats. Do that for a few days, then graduate to petting her as she eats. 

We'll keep this thread going and coach you through the process. Keep reporting in so we can find the thread on the front page. Ky will be back with stories about his wild boys he's tamed that will help everyone here.

can you please elaborate on this? How can you say he won't poop on you? How do I make mine that way? Does it come with age?

 

[OlyChickenGuy]

When I hold my boys, I hold a hand or arm over their rump, which triggers an instinct not to poop. They still need to be taken somewhere to defecate every hour or so until they're used to holding it ( I never let my birds go more than five hours without a bathroom break ). Alternatively, just put a towel on your lap, or get yourself a chicken purse to hold them in.

 

[Farmer Viola]

Viola- Your desire to express and establish dominance is good, as it gets your birds used to your presence as a no-nonsense and consistent flock leader. However, both my and Millan's techniques are not intended to be about strict negative reinforcement, which is what it sounds like you have been doing ( no holding or cuddling for over a month?? ).

hehe well, I was conflicted! I initially raised him with a lot of interaction as a chick. Then I started researching how to treat roosters. I could send you all the threads I read, but you probably know the general advice: Kick him off a mating hen (no, I would never do that). intimidate him. do not hold him or preen him. boot him if he charges you. these things just didn't apply to me, my guy isn't aggressive or someone that I felt like I needed to go out of my way to "mess with." the only time I ever disciplined him was pushing him back in the chest when he bit me. it just shocked me and I reacted.

Not until finding your blog did anyone approach the idea that we could be, well, friends!

and here I am

I have gone out and held him a couple more times. each chase is less stressful than the last. I always walk slowly toward him, and speak calmly as I pick him up. it seems better if I remove him from the coop and run and free range area, I take him to the garden or up near my house (big property). he is distracted by the flock's sounds when near them. on our 1st or 2nd football hold I was petting him and as my hand approached his face, he reached out and bit me, holding onto the skin on my hand but not very hard at all, it didn't hurt and didn't leave a mark. but I just let him do it, he kind of didn't know what to do once he had it, and let go. I told him no, we don't bite and head tapped him a few times. he has not ever bit again, and I have held him probably 4x total since my last post 2 days ago. I am also careful to move my hands very slowly around him especially while petting him. only once he has relaxed I will give him some treats, bread or scratch or whatever. he has also taken from my hand while feeding with the flock! previously he would stay 3ft away from me. It is completey amazing the behavior changes that have already taken place in just a couple days.

thank you so much for taking the time to write me back Oly. I am reading and re-reading what you wrote so it can all absorb in. He is still young like you said, and I think we are already heading in the right direction to have a good trusting relationship.

He used to always be at attention, eyes on me when I was in the run, sideways body language, at a distance. Is my goal for him to ignore me and just go on with his day? acknowledge, then ignore?



Quote: Ok thank you!

Quote: Ok understood. I hope I didn't mess up on that. Our first chase and catch was very alarming to him, including a lot of flapping once I had him. I felt that dominating him and putting his head to the ground needed to happen to calm him down. Also to let him know that I am serious and committed to establishing myself over him. maybe he had some questions about my ability to be dominant before I did this, but now he knows where we stand. I only did it the 1 time. I now realize that it was out of line though because he didn't "do" anything to deserve it.

Quote: do you correct crowing because it's a nuisance or because it's dominant behavior? I live in the country, I don't mind hearing crowing, I actually kinda like it. he crowed one time while I was holding him. I tried to put pressure on the front of his neck but it didnt make a difference. I didnt want to push too hard. I gave him the "bad boy" head shake afterward. then he just crowed again.

if I tried to push him away from me, he would jump back and avoid my hand, giving it a look like he might bite it. maybe if he trusts me more I can try to use this action again..

do you correct dances that are clearly at hens? he doesn't dance me, but he does sometimes just drop a wing while looking at me. maybe this makes him look bigger/more intimidating.

 

[OlyChickenGuy]

Viola- I hate, hate, HATE the general consensus on how to treat roosters! Kicking, punting, beating, or otherwise hurting the bird into submission doesn't create a respectful, calm bond- it creates fear, agitation, and ultimately a ticking time-bomb of a pet that could go off at any moment because it's so fearful and stressed. I believe that holding, preening, and cuddling help to build a trusting bond that goes beyond just pure dominance. Sure you could have a "tolerable" relationship with your pet so long as the dominant/submissive roles are adhered by, but it doesn't make for a very fulfilling relationship in my opinion.

As for your regrets for reacting without thinking when he bit you, and pinning him when chasing him ( if it helped calm him down, then it helped and that's that )- don't hold onto your guilt or regrets, because it will hold you back from making important decisions in the future. This is, ultimately, your bird and not mine- I'm not seeing his immediate behaviour, so I'm unable to judge when general rules apply and when special rules apply- that's up to you and your judgement. You will always know your pet better than anyone else, even if that person is an "expert" in something. Also, animals don't hold grudges- they react to you as you are AT THAT MOMENT, so if you're holding onto the past, they'll register that and react to you differently than if you just interact with them in a here-and-now manner. Animals tend to give people clean slates at each new interaction, and it's the people's reactions that determine how that animal will react to them.

As chickens age, and especially cockerels, it's VERY normal for them to go from funny, friendly, cuddly, happy chicks to suddenly stand-offish, wary, aggressive, or otherwise neurotic, and THAT'S why it's so important to keep working with them through their hormonal times. They're basically being unruly teenagers who say, "Screw off, Mum! I don't need you anymore! You can't tell me to clean my room if I don't want to! I'm going to run away and join the circus!" Structure will greatly diminish these behavioural issues, even in this tough period of his life.

As for ignoring or not- my goal with my flock is that they kind of generally ignore my presence. I handle them each morning when letting them out, and each night when putting them away, but otherwise I want to be able to walk through my yard without anyone under my feet, without anyone running away from me, without anyone changing their routine just because I'm there. I want them to just be scratching at the ground, playing with each other, etc. while I walk around, and IF I call them, to pay attention then. They have one moment in the day where they're allowed to run around like idiots and be crazy- treat time. I toss scratch in the evening ( sometimes the morning ), and my boys go crazy for it! I have chickens jumping on my face, my shoulders, under my feet, and they'll cry and scream at me if I'm late with their treats, and beg for more once I've sprinkled it all around. Basically you want to be seen as a chicken, yourself, and nothing special. You want to be THE dominant chicken, but you want to be just another chicken in their eyes.

Personally, I correct the wing-a-ling dance ( when done near me- not necessarily at me ) and crowing for little other reason than I just don't like it. Roosters left to their own devices correct other roosters who crow or wing-a-ling near them, so it makes sense to do the same if we're going to be "speaking the same language", as Millan likes to say. However, as much as I correct crowing just because it's annoying, I also correct it because crowing is a neurotic behaviour, much like dogs that bark incessantly. It's saying, "I'm not sure about this situation. I feel like I should be doing something about it. I need help! My person needs to help me, but they're not listening! I better get louder and more persistent so they KNOW something is wrong!"