Hatcheries that vaccinate for coccidiosis

Well, I'd be very happy to read more about this. If you have some articles to share, I'd greatly appreciate it. I wouldn't want to do any harm, while trying to keep my girls healthy.

Thank you!

The issue, in short, is that we humans have bred chickens to be very dependent upon us, needing a much better diet than they would likely secure in the wild. In return, they grow faster, produce larger eggs, more frequently, than thewy did 100 years ago, 50 years ago, even 20 years ago. But the research from the 80s and the 2000s provides some recommends for optimal nutritional needs of various breeds.

HERE is the old NRCS recommends for broilers (it contains only ADULT recommends for laying hens). Pay close attention to the Methionine and Lysine recommendations.

More recently, UGA published this. (scroll down - same focus, Methionine and Lysine) This includes numbers for pullets, and updates the laying hens chart - broilers was left mostly unchanged.

and HERE is a very up to date study of studies. Published in 2021, it lists most of the recent research, and identifies the studies upon which the old NRCS recommend were made.

Why am I not looking at protein levels? Because protein levels are made up of amino acids. MOST amino acids, a chicken can make for itself. A few amino acids, a chicken can make from other amino acids (though those reactions aren't always reversible). A few amino acids a chicken can ONLY obtain from its diet.

Of those critical amino acids (often called "limiting", because their absence limits the chicken's ability to use the rest of them), the four most important are Methionine, Lysine, Threonine, and Tryptophan. Of those four, the two most important are Methionine and Lysine, both of which appear on a guaranteed nutritional label here in the US. Threonine is very important in the formation of membranes, but doesn't appear. Neither does Tryptophan - but in a grain based diet, its very hard to "miss" those target numbers, particularly if you get the first two right.

Now the thing about protein is that not all protein is created equal. Every protein has a different proportion of amino acids making it up. That's why vegans engage in "protein complimentation", combining a food high in some amino acids with a food high in others so that, in combination, they get a "complete" protein. Part of why "red beans and rice" or "black beans and yellow rice" or even "wedding soup" are so satisfying, though rice on its own is not, nor are beans on their own, or pasta on its own.

and unfortunately, plant based sources high in methionine are few and far between.

There are some foods (grains, particularly) which have relatively high amounts of methionine as a percentage of total protein, but extremely low levels of protein over all, so a lot of a very little is... not much. [part of why that serving of black beans and yellow rice has so much rice, and so few beans]

In order to get enough Met into a growing chicken's diet to meet its optimum target number, you would either have to feed it more grains than it would eat (and have problems with excess "energy" (that is, carbs...), or lots of seeds (with their high fat content - remember, chickens don't deposit intramuscular fat - its placed on the keel, along the thigh, and packed into the abdominal cavity where it puts pressure on the heart and other internal organs and results in sudden chicken death due to either fatty liver disease or heart failure, most commonly, while also making them more subject to heat stress).

I could go on thru the readily available ingredients one by one. ALL of them have problems, its a very careful balancing act to make a complete feed.

Many, perhaps most, non organic feeds here in the US get their Met levels from a combination of synthetic Met (appears as dl-Methionine, total quantity allowed limited by law), and a Met dense source. Either an animal-based byproduct, i.e. fish meal, shrimp meal, crab meal, porcine blood meal, all of which can contribute accumulations of undesired things (like heavy metals) present in their environment; or a highly processed vegetable source. Soybean meal, Cottonseed meal, low fiber Peanut meal are all good sources. and what makes them "meal"??? Usually, the oils are extracted via chemical solvents, greatly reducing the fat content, then the resulting mass is dried, further concentrating protein, before its ground to powder.

Few of those by products (though more than previously) carry the "Organic" label, and many seeking organics to avoid highly processed feeds reject them anyways.

That's the short form. SO when most people go to feed their chicken "Organic", often in conjunction with other buzz words, in the ignorant belief that they are offering the best diet for their birds, what they are most often doing is offering unenriched white bread as a "complete" ration.
 
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I never vaccinate my birds, for either.

Never lost any due to Coccidiosis, I keep Corid on hand just in case. So far, this year, my new chicks(Silkies, & Turkey Poults), haven't caught it despite being exposed to the soil. Usually I have to treat for it in my younger birds, but usually it's not severe, very rarely I have a severe case.

As for Marek's, I never had a case of it, none of my birds are infected with it. Reason I don't vaccinate for Marek's is the vaccine is leaky, & it only helps the bird that are vaccinated live longer with the virus, by slowing tumor growth, & lessens symptoms. Those that are vaccinated are carriers, & will spread the disease to unvaccinated birds.
https://journals.plos.org/plosbiology/article?id=10.1371/journal.pbio.1002198
 
The issue, in short, is that we humans have bred chickens to be very dependent upon us, needing a much better diet than they would likely secure in the wild. In return, they grow faster, produce larger eggs, more frequently, than thewy did 100 years ago, 50 years ago, even 20 years ago. But the research from the 80s and the 2000s provides some recommends for optimal nutritional needs of various breeds.

HERE is the old NRCS recommends for broilers (it contains only ADULT recommends for laying hens). Pay close attention to the Methionine and Lysine recommendations.

More recently, UGA published this. (scroll down - same focus, Methionine and Lysine) This includes numbers for pullets, and updates the laying hens chart - broilers was left mostly unchanged.

and HERE is a very up to date study of studies. Published in 2021, it lists most of the recent research, and identifies the studies upon which the old NRCS recommend were made.

Why am I not looking at protein levels? Because protein levels are made up of amino acids. MOST amino acids, a chicken can make for itself. A few amino acids, a chicken can make from other amino acids (though those reactions aren't always reversible). A few amino acids a chicken can ONLY obtain from its diet.

Of those critical amino acids (often called "limiting", because their absence limits the chicken's ability to use the rest of them), the four most important are Methionine, Lysine, Threonine, and Tryptophan. Of those four, the two most important are Methionine and Lysine, both of which appear on a guaranteed nutritional label here in the US. Threonine is very important in the formation of membranes, but doesn't appear. Neither does Tryptophan - but in a grain based diet, its very hard to "miss" those target numbers, particularly if you get the first two right.

Now the thing about protein is that not all protein is created equal. Every protein has a different proportion of amino acids making it up. That's why vegans engage in "protein complimentation", combining a food high in some amino acids with a food high in others so that, in combination, they get a "complete" protein. Part of why "red beans and rice" or "black beans and yellow rice" or even "wedding soup" are so satisfying, though rice on its own is not, nor are beans on their own, or pasta on its own.

and unfortunately, plant based sources high in methionine are few and far between.

There are some foods (grains, particularly) which have relatively high amounts of methionine as a percentage of total protein, but extremely low levels of protein over all, so a lot of a very little is... not much.

In order to get enough Met into a growing chicken's diet to meet its optimum target number, you would either have to feed it more grains than it would eat (and have problems with excess "energy" (that is, carbs...), or lots of seeds (with their high fat content - remember, chickens don't deposit intramuscular fat - its placed on the keel, along the thigh, and packed into the abdominal cavity where it puts pressure on the heart and other internal organs and results in sudden chicken death due to either fatty liver disease or heart failure, most commonly, while also making them more subject to heat stress).

I could go on thru the readily available ingredients one by one. ALL of them have problems, its a very careful balancing act to make a complete feed.

Many, perhaps most, non organic feeds here in the US get their Met levels from a combination of synthetic Met (appears as dl-Methionine, total quantity allowed limited by law), and a Met dense source. Either an animal-based byproduct, i.e. fish meal, shrimp meal, crab meal, porcine blood meal, all of which can contribute accumulations of undesired things (like heavy metals) present in their environment; or a highly processed vegetable source. Soybean meal, Cottonseed meal, low fiber Peanut meal are all good sources. and what makes them "meal"??? Usually, the oils are extracted via chemical solvents, greatly reducing the fat content, then the resulting mass is dried, further concentrating protein, before its ground to powder.

Few of those by products (though more than their used to be) carry the "Organic" label, and many seeking organics to avoid highly processed feeds reject them anyways.

That's the short form. SO when most people go to feed their chicken "Organic", often in conjunction with other buzz words, in the ignorant belief that they are offering the best diet for their birds, what they are most often doing is offering unenriched white bread as a "complete" ration.
Okay, so obviously you are well educated on this subject. And thank you for taking the time to lay it all out for me. ☺️

I guess what I am NOT understanding is organic, non-GMOs, do not add undesirables to the natural organic pure food. SO, how is not altering the purest form of compounds changing the chemical make-up of the feed that is necessary for the health & well-being of the chickens? I would think the exact opposite would occur.
By adding poisonous toxins (glyphosate etc..) you're changing the nutritional value of the product? B/c most of these additives our bodies cannot metabolize. I would think the same goes for the chickens. I'm not following.
Unless what you are saying is that it's not that clear cut. SO, manufacturer's of organic chicken feed aren't adding the necessary elements to keep the chickens healthy. It's sounds like an oxymoron. If a company is going to produce the best quality organic, non-GMO feed to help fight off future issues/diseases etc... Why would they leave out necessary ingredients? What am I missing. I will read the articles you added. Maybe that will help me to get the gist of this argument.

And again, thanks so much for your time on this subject. I am trying to learn all I can to keep my girls happy & healthy.
 
not chicken food, but as soon as the big conglomerates got on the 'organic' bandwagon to fill the demand I understand they used their muscle to change the definition.
Organic is one thing, GMO is another can of worms.

I mean, Roundup-Ready is the devil, but not all modifications are. Some have saved the world from famine with a little more controlled and sped up selection process.
I question 'organic' when the [roduce is flown across the globe, really negating the lower footprint. Alas, if they actually adhere to the organic principles in the heart of Africa to produce our chocolate, it is good for their young workforce (yet another problem, active slave labor)
But I have tottled far away from the original question, being only half caffeinated at this point.

@U_Stormcrow though has a really good point: Read the small print of the label.
Ha, yes I get that point as well. I had a cousin working in a supermarket many years ago. He told my husband that they just add the organic labels to all produce. I was very upset after hearing that. So, they can charge you more, but you're still being poisoned.
UGH ... absolutely diabolical!!!
 
I apologize to Pampered Chicken Girl. I did not intend on hyjacking your thread.
It happened organically ... ha ha see what I did there ... :lau
 
Okay, so obviously you are well educated on this subject. And thank you for taking the time to lay it all out for me. ☺️

I guess what I am NOT understanding is organic, non-GMOs, do not add undesirables to the natural organic pure food. SO, how is not altering the purest form of compounds changing the chemical make-up of the feed that is necessary for the health & well-being of the chickens? I would think the exact opposite would occur.
By adding poisonous toxins (glyphosate etc..) you're changing the nutritional value of the product? B/c most of these additives our bodies cannot metabolize. I would think the same goes for the chickens. I'm not following.
Unless what you are saying is that it's not that clear cut. SO, manufacturer's of organic chicken feed aren't adding the necessary elements to keep the chickens healthy. It's sounds like an oxymoron. If a company is going to produce the best quality organic, non-GMO feed to help fight off future issues/diseases etc... Why would they leave out necessary ingredients? What am I missing. I will read the articles you added. Maybe that will help me to get the gist of this argument.

And again, thanks so much for your time on this subject. I am trying to learn all I can to keep my girls happy & healthy.

You are thinking about it backwards. Not your fault - there is little interest in producing educated consumers, and LOTS of interest in selling them on the added value of buzz words. Its a deliberately crafted appeal to ignorance, but ignorance that "sounds right".

To explain by analogy? Modern chickens need a super multi-vitamin that Nature on her own can't provide if you limit your feed to largely unprocessed organic sources.

The intent of a feed company is NOT to make the best feed possible - its to sell the most feed it can at some reasonable profit. Which is why you often see all kinds of buzz words on feed labels which have little if anything to do with optimizing a chicken's nutritional inputs.

and the inclusion of some products is limited by law - there is, in fact, a persistent effort to remove dl-Methionine (already limited) from the list of "acceptable" in "Organic" labeled products. See for instance. and "high Met Corn" is a GMO. ;)
 
I never vaccinate my birds, for either.

Never lost any due to Coccidiosis, I keep Corid on hand just in case. So far, this year, my new chicks(Silkies, & Turkey Poults), haven't caught it despite being exposed to the soil. Usually I have to treat for it in my younger birds, but usually it's not severe, very rarely I have a severe case.

As for Marek's, I never had a case of it, none of my birds are infected with it. Reason I don't vaccinate for Marek's is the vaccine is leaky, & it only helps the bird that are vaccinated live longer with the virus, by slowing tumor growth, & lessens symptoms. Those that are vaccinated are carriers, & will spread the disease to unvaccinated birds.
https://journals.plos.org/plosbiology/article?id=10.1371/journal.pbio.1002198
I too have been fortunate to have never dealt with Coccidiosis with any of my chickens for well over 50 years now having had flocks on five different properties in that timeframe. And I have had Marek's vaccinated birds mixed with non-vaccinated ones throughout that time with no apparent issues. Maybe I've just been lucky.
 
Okay, so obviously you are well educated on this subject. And thank you for taking the time to lay it all out for me. ☺️

I guess what I am NOT understanding is organic, non-GMOs, do not add undesirables to the natural organic pure food. SO, how is not altering the purest form of compounds changing the chemical make-up of the feed that is necessary for the health & well-being of the chickens? I would think the exact opposite would occur.
By adding poisonous toxins (glyphosate etc..) you're changing the nutritional value of the product? B/c most of these additives our bodies cannot metabolize. I would think the same goes for the chickens. I'm not following.
Unless what you are saying is that it's not that clear cut. SO, manufacturer's of organic chicken feed aren't adding the necessary elements to keep the chickens healthy. It's sounds like an oxymoron. If a company is going to produce the best quality organic, non-GMO feed to help fight off future issues/diseases etc... Why would they leave out necessary ingredients? What am I missing. I will read the articles you added. Maybe that will help me to get the gist of this argument.

And again, thanks so much for your time on this subject. I am trying to learn all I can to keep my girls happy & healthy.
Your making more sense to me then the “science” kinda like the science & Covid 🤷🏼‍♀️🤷🏼‍♀️🤷🏼‍♀️🤷🏼‍♀️🤷🏼‍♀️🤷🏼‍♀️🤷🏼‍♀️🤷🏼‍♀️🤷🏼‍♀️🤷🏼‍♀️ Just saying.. I’m not to fond of the science these days...
I too feed organic foods to chickens... and do not plan on changing...
I also do not vaccinate... coccidia is a parasite that they can be easily medicated for...
 
Your making more sense to me then the “science” kinda like the science & Covid 🤷🏼‍♀️🤷🏼‍♀️🤷🏼‍♀️🤷🏼‍♀️🤷🏼‍♀️🤷🏼‍♀️🤷🏼‍♀️🤷🏼‍♀️🤷🏼‍♀️🤷🏼‍♀️ Just saying.. I’m not to fond of the science these days...
I too feed organic foods to chickens... and do not plan on changing...
I also do not vaccinate... coccidia is a parasite that they can be easily medicated for...
Welcome to BYC!

It appears you have mistaken Goverment for Science. Not an uncommon error.

Again, you are welcome to your beliefs, reality differs.
 
Okay, so obviously you are well educated on this subject. And thank you for taking the time to lay it all out for me. ☺️

I guess what I am NOT understanding is organic, non-GMOs, do not add undesirables to the natural organic pure food. SO, how is not altering the purest form of compounds changing the chemical make-up of the feed that is necessary for the health & well-being of the chickens? I would think the exact opposite would occur.
By adding poisonous toxins (glyphosate etc..) you're changing the nutritional value of the product? B/c most of these additives our bodies cannot metabolize. I would think the same goes for the chickens. I'm not following.
Unless what you are saying is that it's not that clear cut. SO, manufacturer's of organic chicken feed aren't adding the necessary elements to keep the chickens healthy. It's sounds like an oxymoron. If a company is going to produce the best quality organic, non-GMO feed to help fight off future issues/diseases etc... Why would they leave out necessary ingredients? What am I missing. I will read the articles you added. Maybe that will help me to get the gist of this argument.

And again, thanks so much for your time on this subject. I am trying to learn all I can to keep my girls happy & healthy.
Think of it this way, rattle snake venom is organic, free range and all natural. Is it healthy for you?
I think what storm crow is saying is thar we've bred chicken over the last decades to need more nutrition since they grow faster and lay more, for longer. Typically, Organic feed can't meet these needs since there are no/little organic sources for certain nutrients, if they include these ingredients, they loose organic status. if they don't add them, they have organic feed that's lacking nutritionally. Organic is simply a farming method, the resulting crops/meat/etc, aren't necessarily more or less nutritious than non-organic produce. Most crops are borderline organic, but since there's an obscene amount of red tape, paperwork, money and oversight needed to certify it, most farmers don't bother. Gmos aren't as scary as people think once some research is done, they're simple crops designed to have more nutrition, yield better or do better in poor soil/water areas or resistance to blights. Gmo crops (say potatoes or corn) allow nutrious food to be grown in areas that wouldn't support those crops of they were 'heritage', like central Africa. Scientists are working on potatoes that are high in vitamin A, since lack of vitamin A causes serious health problems like blindness in children. Vitamin a crops aren't readily available everywhere but potatos do well in many places. :]
 

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