Hatching Muscovy X Khaki crosses, need help!

[mirandaleecon]

Oh, lordy, Kath...that's upsetting to see. :/ I didn't know you gave your fuzzbutts to UC Davis to analyze, that's rather handy. That's where my friend went to college, as well! I just wonder how on earth E. Coli got into the egg? Was it pooped on?

As for you Mira, the rule of thumb is crushing one B complex pill (you can use straight-up niacin but I like the B-complex since it offers multiple nutrients) into a gallon of water. You can scale up or down however you see fit. With the vitamin E, you can just get the capsules, poke a hole in one and let him nibble on the oil. You can't overdose on vitamin E, so just use common sense and it should be fine.

Oh! I just checked and I actually have some B complex on hand! I forgot I had it! I have this horrible habit of buying vitamins and never taking them...

 

[mirandaleecon]

Oh, is he crested? Poor thing...just one of the many plights of crested ducks. :/ That means that the issue could be neurological. You should still give him the B and E vitamins since it will still help if it is a bone or muscle problem, and at the very least it'll help the  lil' guy feel better. 

yea, there's about 5 or so that have a crest. Makes sense if half of them are from the pekin. Well I hope this one gets better, and if anything, I hope it's the only one!

 

[Amykins]

Me too. I know it's controversial, but this is why I try to avoid the crested gene. There are just too many risks, and quite a few crested ducklings die young because of genetic problems.

 

[mirandaleecon]

Me too. I know it's controversial, but this is why I try to avoid the crested gene. There are just too many risks, and quite a few crested ducklings die young because of genetic problems.

I think I will too in the future. My pekin gets by fine but something definitely seems off about her. Always does this awkward flip thing when she swims. I didn't even take it into consideration before hatching these. I honestly forgot she was crested until the ducklings hatched because hers is so small! It was more noticeable when she was younger but now it's just a little cowlick...

 

[casportpony]

. Brain injury is the cause I feel fairly certain about.

Water on the brain was seen in a necropsy of an affected bird in Florida. Prednisone (read on about different opinions on prednisone) was suggested as symptomatic relief and vitamin E and vitamins B complex are both good for neurological disorders. Selenium helps animals absorb vitamin E.

Here's what I do for affected birds. If started before symptoms get severe, the bird will usually totally recover.

The Most Important Treatment

It is important to be sure your bird gets enough to eat and drink while she has this problem. Birds with severe cases of crookneck can't eat and drink enough to survive. You will need to gently place their head in the feed dish and carefully dip just the tip of the beak in water. Be careful not to dip too far into the water and to not stress the bird while trying to help.

In severe cases, you will need to use a hand feeding syringe and hand rearing formula for cage birds. My boy Spot had to be hand fed for 2 months but he survived to father lots of healthy chicks.

If you and your bird are lucky, hand feeding and the vitamins will be all that is needed.

Giving Prednisone Must Not Be Abruptly Stopped

Before I present my treatment I need to mention that a couple vets have expressed concern about using prednisone. They suggested instead giving Celebrex or Metacam. They are also anti-inflammatory. I can understand their concern but I gradually reduce the dose and do not just one day stop giving prednisone. I have seen no adverse effects and prednisone is inexpensive while Celebrex and Metacam are expensive.

Many vets think prednisone OK and in fact is was prescribed for a bird of mine.

Veterinary Information on Prednisone

My Treatment for Crookneck

If started before symptoms get severe, the bird will totally recover. The following is for an adult about 2 pound bird. Scale back for smaller birds. Do not over do the selenium; it is toxic in large amounts. Animals are more tolerant of vitamin E especially and of vitamin B.

• For the first week I give
  • Once a day
    • About 1/4 piece of human vitamin B complex pill or a squirt of human B liquid vitamins
    • :25 micrograms selenium
  • Twice a day
    • 2.5 mg of prednisone
    • 400 IU of vitamin E
• For the second week I give
  • Once a day
    • 2.5 mg of prednisone
    • 400 IU of vitamin E
    • About 1/4 piece of human vitamin B complex pill or a squirt of human B liquid vitamins
  • Every other day
    • :25 micrograms selenium
• For the third and following weeks I give
  • Once a day
    • 2.5 mg of prednisone - less and less each day - none after third week
    • 400 IU of vitamin E
    • A piece of human vitamin B complex pill or a squirt of human liquid vitamins
  • Once a week
    • :25 micrograms selenium

Do not abruptly stop prednisone, the swelling rebounds. Decrease the dose gradually. Recovery can be slow; continue the vitamin E for several weeks at least.

You can get prednisone from a vet; just describe the problem of swelling in the brain probably due to injury. Yes Silkies' brains do stick out through a hole on the top of the skull. Print the pictures at Silkies Have a Hole in Their Head and show them to your vet.

Your vet might suggest a different anti inflammatory like Celebrex or Metacam.

You can get the vitamin E, selenium, and vitamin B complex or liquid vitamins at any pharmacy.

A Vet's Review of this Therapy

Diana Hedrick asked Janny Hermans, a poultry specialist in the Netherlands, to review this Therapy. Janny Hermans' reply is below. Janny Hermans warns about over doing the prednisone and agrees the vitamins E and B can also help. She does however address the possibility of poisoning causing the neurological problems. She suggests an antibiotic in case bacteria are the source of the poison.

Dear Diana,

I'll try to write English and I'm sure we'll understand each other. If you really found her on her back, that means she totally lost her balance. This is a severe neurological symptom and therefore I agree for a great deal with the article of Alan. I don't think your cat attacked her. Then you should see wounds on her head, if the symptoms are so bad.

It's more likely that she suffers from an intoxication of any kind. It's difficult how to react, because there are no real detoxification methods. Antibiotics are a good thing and I think your choice of amoxicillin was a right one. Amoxicillin passes the blood brain barrier and is our first choice antibiotic in Streptococcus or Staphylococcus infections in the brain. Amoxicillin also is the best antibiotic in an infection with Clostridium perfringens (a brother of the bacteria that causes botulism). These Clostridia bacteria all cause cramps or paralysis of muscles. The real problem is that these bacteria also produce toxins against which no therapy is possible.

So my therapy would be the same: Amoxicillin for a day or 7 and perhaps a little bit prednisone (I've never heard of the hole in Silkies brains, but prednisone causes no harm if you give it shortly). A little bit of vitamin E and B can help also.

I hope I helped you a bit!!

Janny Hermans Poultry veterinarian

-Kathy

 

[casportpony]

Oh, lordy, Kath...that's upsetting to see. :/ I didn't know you gave your fuzzbutts to UC Davis to analyze, that's rather handy. That's where my friend went to college, as well! I just wonder how on earth E. Coli got into the egg? Was it pooped on?

As for you Mira, the rule of thumb is crushing one B complex pill (you can use straight-up niacin but I like the B-complex since it offers multiple nutrients) into a gallon of water. You can scale up or down however you see fit. With the vitamin E, you can just get the capsules, poke a hole in one and let him nibble on the oil. You can't overdose on vitamin E, so just use common sense and it should be fine.

Necropsies on poultry and waterfowl are free for CA residents, no reason not to use such a service.

I posted the picture because at first I thought it was wry neck, so I went off to several stores to get the stuff that was recommended to treat it, but no amount of vitamins was gonna help that. Perhaps if I had started it on Baytril it would have lived?


-Kathy

 

[casportpony]

Vitamin E is a fat soluble vitamin, so one should be careful when giving that.

-Kathy

 

[casportpony]

Note that the dosing directions in post #135 are for a 2 pound bird.

-Kathy

 

[mirandaleecon]

Vitamin E is a fat soluble vitamin, so one should be careful when giving that.

-Kathy

Thank you for that article! That actually makes me feel better, I was thinking that it wouldn't have much of a chance if it was neurological. It actually seemed a bit better this morning, although I'm not sure if that's just because it's a little stronger (since yesterday was it's hatch day, they were all a bit wobbly anyway) or if the vitamins are helping.

What does the Vit E being fat soluble affect?

 

[casportpony]

Here's some info:

.
What are Fat-Soluble Vitamins?

The fat-soluble vitamins, A, D, E, and K, are stored in the body for long periods of time and generally pose a greater risk for toxicity when consumed in excess than water-soluble vitamins. Eating a normal, well-balanced diet will not lead to toxicity in otherwise healthy individuals. However, taking vitamin supplements that contain megadoses of vitamins A, D, E and K may lead to toxicity. The body only needs small amounts of any vitamin.
While diseases caused by a lack of fat-soluble vitamins are rare in the United States, symptoms of mild deficiency can develop without adequate amounts of vitamins in the diet. Additionally, some health problems may decrease the absorption of fat, and in turn, decrease the absorption of vitamins A, D, E and K. Consult a medical professional about any potential health problems that may interfere with vitamin absorption.
Vitamin A: Retinol

What is Vitamin A

Vitamin A, also called retinol, has many functions in the body. In addition to helping the eyes adjust to light changes, vitamin A plays an important role in bone growth, tooth development, reproduction, cell division, gene expression, and regulation of the immune system. The skin, eyes, and mucous membranes of the mouth, nose, throat and lungs depend on vitamin A to remain moist. Vitamin A is also an important antioxidant that may play a role in the prevention of certain cancers.
Food Sources for Vitamin A

Eating a wide variety of foods is the best way to ensure that the body gets enough vitamin A. The retinol, retinal, and retinoic acid forms of vitamin A are supplied primarily by foods of animal origin such as dairy products, fish and liver. Some foods of plant origin contain the antioxidant, betacarotene, which the body converts to vitamin A. Beta-carotene, comes from fruits and vegetables, especially those that are orange or dark green in color. Vitamin A sources also include carrots, pumpkin, winter squash, dark green leafy vegetables and apricots, all of which are rich in beta-carotene.
How much Vitamin A

The recommendation for vitamin A intake is expressed as micrograms (mcg) of retinol activity equivalents (RAE). Retinol activity equivalents account for the fact that the body converts only a portion of betacarotene to retinol. One RAE equals 1 mcg of retinol or 12 mcg of beta-carotene (Table 1). The Recommended Dietary Allowance (RDA) for vitamin A is 900 mcg/ day for adult males and 700 mcg/day for adult females.
Compared to vitamin A, it takes twice the amount of carotene rich foods to meet the body’s vitamin A requirements, so one may need to increase consumption of carotene containing plant foods.
Recent studies indicate that vitamin A requirements may be increased due to hyperthyroidism, fever, infection, cold, and exposure to excessive amounts of sunlight. Those that consume excess alcohol or have renal disease should also increase intake of vitamin A.
Vitamin A Deficiency

Vitamin A deficiency in the United States is rare, but the disease that results is known as xerophthalmia. It most commonly occurs in developing nations usually due to malnutrition. Since vitamin A is stored in the liver, it may take up to 2 years for signs of deficiency to appear. Night blindness and very dry, rough skin may indicate a lack of vitamin A. Other signs of possible vitamin A deficiency include decreased resistance to infections, faulty tooth development, and slower bone growth.
Too much Vitamin A

In the United States, toxic or excess levels of vitamin A are more of a concern than deficiencies. The Tolerable Upper Intake Level (UL) for adults is 3,000 mcg RAE (Table 2). It would be difficult to reach this level consuming food alone, but some multivitamin supplements contain high doses of vitamin A. If you take a multivitamin, check the label to be sure the majority of vitamin A provided is in the form of beta-carotene, which appears to be safe. Symptoms of vitamin A toxicity include dry, itchy skin, headache, nausea, and loss of appetite. Signs of severe overuse over a short period of time include dizziness, blurred vision and slowed growth. Vitamin A toxicity also can cause severe birth defects and may increase the risk for hip fractures.
Vitamin D

What is Vitamin D

Vitamin D plays a critical role in the body’s use of calcium and phosphorous. It works by increasing the amount of calcium absorbed from the small intestine, helping to form and maintain bones. Vitamin D benefits the body by playing a role in immunity and controlling cell growth. Children especially need adequate amounts of vitamin D to develop strong bones and healthy teeth.
Food Sources for Vitamin D

The primary food sources of vitamin D are milk and other dairy products fortified with vitamin D. Vitamin D is also found in oily fish (e.g., herring, salmon and sardines) as well as in cod liver oil. In addition to the vitamin D provided by food, we obtain vitamin D through our skin which produces vitamin D in response to sunlight.
How much Vitamin D

The Recommended Dietary Allowance (RDA) for vitamin D appears as micrograms (mcg) of cholecalciferol (vitamin D3) (Table 1). From 12 months to age fifty, the RDA is set at 15 mcg. Twenty mcg of cholecalciferol equals 800 International Units (IU), which is the recommendation for maintenance of healthy bone for adults over fifty. Table 1 lists additional recommendations for various life stages.
Exposure to ultraviolet light is necessary for the body to produce the active form of vitamin D. Ten to fifteen minutes of sunlight without sunscreen on the hands, arms and face, twice a week is sufficient to receive enough vitamin D. This can easily be obtained in the time spent riding a bike to work or taking a short walk. In order to reduce the risk for skin cancer one should apply sunscreen with an SPF of 15 or more, if time in the sun exceeds 10 to 15 minutes.
Vitamin D Deficiency

Symptoms of vitamin D deficiency in growing children include rickets (long, soft bowed legs) and flattening of the back of the skull. Vitamin D deficiency in adults may result in osteomalacia (muscle and bone weakness), and osteoporosis (loss of bone mass).
Recently published data introduces a concern that some adults and children may be more prone to developing vitamin D deficiency due to an increase in sunscreen use. In addition, those that live in inner cities, wear clothing that covers most of the skin, or live in northern climates where little sun is seen in the winter are also prone to vitamin D deficiency. Since most foods have very low vitamin D levels (unless they are enriched) a deficiency may be more likely to develop without adequate exposure to sunlight. Adding fortified foods to the diet such as milk, and for adults including a supplement, are effective at ensuring adequate vitamin D intake and preventing low vitamin D levels.
Vitamin D deficiency has been associated with increased risk of common cancers, autoimmune diseases, hypertension, and infectious disease. In the absence of adequate sun exposure, at least 800 to 1,000 IU of vitamin D3 may be needed to reach the circulating level required to maximize vitamin D’s benefits.
Who is at Risk — These populations may require extra vitamin D in the form of supplements or fortified foods:

• Exclusively breast-fed infants: Human milk only provides 25 IU of vitamin D per liter. All breast-fed and partially breast-fed infants should be given a vitamin D supplement of 400 IU/day​
• Dark Skin: Those with dark pigmented skin synthesize less vitamin D upon exposure to sunlight compared to those with light pigmented skin.​
• Elderly: This population has a reduced ability to synthesize vitamin D upon exposure to sunlight, and is also more likely to stay indoors and wear sunscreen which blocks vitamin D synthesis.​
• Covered and protected skin: Those that cover all of their skin with clothing while outside, and those that wear sunscreen with an SPF factor of 8, block most of the synthesis of vitamin D from sunlight.​
• Disease: Fat malabsorption syndromes, inflammatory bowel disease (IBD), and obesity are all known to result in a decreased ability to absorb and/or use vitamin D in fat stores.​

Too much Vitamin D

The Tolerable Upper Intake Level (UL) for vitamin D is set at 100 mcg for people 9 years of age and older (Table 2). High doses of vitamin D supplements coupled with large amounts of fortified foods may cause accumulations in the liver and produce signs of poisoning. Signs of vitamin D toxicity include excess calcium in the blood, slowed mental and physical growth, decreased appetite, nausea and vomiting.
It is especially important that infants and young children do not consume excess amounts of vitamin D regularly, due to their small body size.
Vitamin E: Tocopherol

What is Vitamin E

Vitamin E benefits the body by acting as an antioxidant, and protecting vitamins A and C, red blood cells, and essential fatty acids from destruction. Research from decades ago suggested that taking antioxidant supplements, vitamin E in particular, might help prevent heart disease and cancer. However, newer findings indicate that people who take antioxidant and vitamin E supplements are not better protected against heart disease and cancer than non-supplement users. Many studies show a link between regularly eating an antioxidant rich diet full of fruits and vegetables, and a lower risk for heart disease, cancer, and several other diseases. Essentially, recent research indicates that to receive the full benefits of antioxidants and phytonutrients in the diet, one should consume these compounds in the form of fruits and vegetables, not as supplements.
Food Sources for Vitamin E

About 60 percent of vitamin E in the diet comes from vegetable oil (soybean, corn, cottonseed, and safflower). This also includes products made with vegetable oil (margarine and salad dressing). Vitamin E sources also include fruits and vegetables, grains, nuts (almonds and hazelnuts), seeds (sunflower) and fortified cereals.
How much Vitamin E

The Recommended Dietary Allowance (RDA) for vitamin E is based on the most active and usable form called alpha-tocopherol (Table 1). Food and supplement labels list alpha-tocopherol as the unit International units (IU) not in milligrams (mg). One milligram of alpha-tocopherol equals to 1.5 International Units (IU). RDA guidelines state that males and females over the age of 14 should receive 15 mcg of alpha-tocopherol per day. Consuming vitamin E in excess of the RDA does not result in any added benefits.
Vitamin E Deficiency

Vitamin E deficiency is rare. Cases of vitamin E deficiency usually only occur in premature infants and in those unable to absorb fats. Since vegetable oils are good sources of vitamin E, people who excessively reduce their total dietary fat may not get enough vitamin E.
Too much Vitamin E

The Tolerable Upper Intake Level (UL) for vitamin E is shown in Table 2. Vitamin E obtained from food usually does not pose a risk for toxicity. Supplemental vitamin E is not recommended due to lack of evidence supporting any added health benefits. Megadoses of supplemental vitamin E may pose a hazard to people taking blood-thinning medications such as Coumadin (also known as warfarin) and those on statin drugs.
Vitamin K

What is Vitamin K

Vitamin K is naturally produced by the bacteria in the intestines, and plays an essential role in normal blood clotting, promoting bone health, and helping to produce proteins for blood, bones, and kidneys.
Food Sources for Vitamin K

Good food sources of vitamin K are green, leafy-vegetables such as turnip greens, spinach, cauliflower, cabbage and broccoli, and certain vegetables oils including soybean oil, cottonseed oil, canola oil and olive oil. Animal foods, in general, contain limited amounts of vitamin K.
How much Vitamin K

To help ensure people receive sufficient amounts of vitamin K, an Adequate Intake (AI) has been established for each age group (Table 1).
Vitamin K Deficiency

Without sufficient amounts of vitamin K, hemorrhaging can occur. Vitamin K deficiency may appear in infants or in people who take anticoagulants, such as Coumadin (warfarin), or antibiotic drugs. Newborn babies lack the intestinal bacteria to produce vitamin K and need a supplement for the first week. Those on anticoagulant drugs (blood thinners) may become vitamin K deficient, but should not change their vitamin K intake without consulting a physician. People taking antibiotics may lack vitamin K temporarily because intestinal bacteria are sometimes killed as a result of long-term use of antibiotics. Also, people with chronic diarrhea may have problems absorbing sufficient amounts of vitamin K through the intestine and should consult their physician to determine if supplementation is necessary.
Too much Vitamin K

Although no Tolerable Upper Intake Level (UL) has been established for vitamin K, excessive amounts can cause the breakdown of red blood cells and liver damage. People taking blood-thinning drugs or anticoagulants should moderate their intake of foods with vitamin K, because excess vitamin K can alter blood clotting times. Large doses of vitamin K are not advised.
Summary

• Fat-soluble vitamins: A, D, E, and K — are stored in the body for long periods of time, and pose a greater risk for toxicity than water-soluble vitamins. Fat-soluble vitamins are only needed in small amounts.​
• Beta carotene is an important antioxidant that the body converts to Vitamin A, and it is found in a variety of fruits and vegetables.​
• Inadequate dietary consumption of vitamin D, along with limited sun exposure, makes vitamin D deficiency a growing public health concern.​
• Vitamin E benefits the body by acting as an antioxidant, and research indicates that it may offer a protective effect if obtained through a diet rich in fruits and vegetables, as opposed to a supplement or multivitamin.​
• The bacteria in our gut produce vitamin K, and it is also found in green leafy vegetables.​

Table 1. Recommended Dietary Intake (RDA) and Adequate Intake (AI) for Fat-Soluble Vitamins

Life Stage Group Vitamin A
(mcg1/RAE) Vitamin D
(mcg2) Vitamin E
(mcg a-TE3) Vitamin K
(mcg)
Infants4
0 - 6mo 400* 10* 4* 2.0*
6mo - 12mo 500* 10* 5* 2.5*
Children
1 - 3y 300 15 6 30*
4 - 8y 400 15 7 55*
Males
9 - 13y 600 15 11 60*
14 - 18y 900 15 15 75*
19 - 30y 900 15 15 120*
31 - 50y 900 15 15 120*
51 - 70y 900 15 15 120*
>70y 900 20 15 120*
Females
9 - 13y 600 15 11 60*
14 - 18y 700 15 15 75*
19 - 30y 700 15 15 90*
31 - 50y 700 15 15 90*
51 - 70y 700 15 15 90*
>70y 700 20 15 90*
Pregnant
14 - 18y 750 15 15 75
19 - 30y 770 15 15 90
31 - 50y 770 15 15 90
Lactation
14 - 18y 1200 15 19 75
19 - 30y 1300 15 19 90
31 - 50y 1300 15 19 90​

1As retinol activity equivalents (RAEs). 1 RAE = 1mcg retinol or 12 mcg beta-carotene.
2As cholecalciferol (vitamin D3). 10 mcg cholecalciferol = 400 IU of Vitamin D.
3As alpha-tocopherol equivalents. 1 mg of alpha-tocopherol = 1.5 IU of Vitamin E=22IU of d-alpha-tocopherol=33 IU of dl-alpha- tocopherol
4At 6 months of age, infants may be introduced to solid foods while remaining on formula or breast milk. There may be some overlap in specific nutrient requirements.
*Indicates an Adequate Intake (AI). All other values are Recommended Dietary Allowance (RDA).
Table 2. Tolerable Upper Intake Levels (UL) for Fat-Soluble Vitamins

Life Stage Group Vitamin A
(mcg/d) Vitamin D
(mcg/d) Vitamin E
(mg a-TE) Vitamin K*
Infants1
0 - 6mo 600 25 ND2 ND
6mo - 12mo 600 38 ND ND
Children
1 - 3y 600 63 200 ND
4 - 8y 900 75 300 ND
Males/Females
9 - 13y 1700 100 600 ND
14 - 18y 2800 100 800 ND
19 - 70y 3000 100 1000 ND
>70y 3000 100 1000 ND
Pregnant and Lactating
<18 2800 100 800 ND
19 - 50y 3000 100 1000 ND​

1At 6 months of age, infants may be introduced to solid foods while remaining on formula or breast milk. There may be some overlap in specific nutrient requirements.
2ND = not determinable due to insufficient data
*An UL for vitamin K was not established.
References

Advanced Nutrition: Macronutrients, Micronutrients, and Metabolism (2009). CRC Press, Taylor & Francis Group.
Advanced Nutrition and Human Metabolism (2009). Wadsworth, Cengage Learning.
Biochemical, Physiological, Molecular Aspects of Human Nutrition (2006). Saunders, Elsevier Inc.
Dietary Reference Intakes for Calcium and Vitamin D. Washington, DC: National Academy Press, 2011.
Dietary Reference Intakes for Vitamin C, Vitamin E, Selenium, and Carotenoids. Washington, DC: National Academy Press, 2000.
Dietary Reference Intakes for Vitamin A, Vitamin K, Arsenic, Boron, Chromium, Copper, Iodine, Iron, Manganese, Molybdenum, Nickel, Silicon, Vanadium, and Zinc. Washington, DC: National Academy Press, 2001.
Dietary Supplements: What you need to know (2011). NIH Clinical Center. Available onhttp://ods.od.nih.gov/HealthInformation/DS_WhatYouNeedToKnow.aspx
Duyff, ADA . American Dietetic Association: Complete Food and Nutrition Guide. Hoboken: John Wiley & Sons, Inc., 2006. Ebook Library Web. 02 Oct. 2012.
Holick, M.F. and Chen, T.C. Vitamin D deficiency: a worldwide problem with health consequences. American Journal of Clinical Nutrition. 2008. April 87 (4): 1080S-6S.
U.S. Department of Agriculture and U.S. Department of Health and Human Services. Dietary Guidelines for Americans, 2010. 7th Edition, Washington, DC: U.S. Government Printing Office, December 2010.
Wagner CL, Greer FR. American Academy of Pediatrics, Section on Breastfeeding and Committee on Nutrition. Prevention of rickets and vitamin D deficiency in infants, children, and adolescents. Pediatrics. 2008; 122(5): 1142–1152.
* L. Bellows, Colorado State University Extension food and nutrition specialist and assistant professor; and R. Moore, graduate student. 3/02. Revised 11/12.
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