Heater or heat panel -10

[NatJ]

I posted studies that discuss cold stress in birds because a lot of people don’t feel cold stress is an issue, but I think people are stuck on the 50F temp. Here is Dr. Mozisek discussing it:

Thank you!

I think his perception is badly skewed by the fact that he lives in Texas. It also sounds to me like he is giving advice for people in his climate, not for people in all climates.

For example, he can talk about closing up a coop and compromising ventilation for just one or two cold nights. He says that you would not want to do this for extended lengths of time. But his rare nights of cold temperatures are what some northern climates see for months on end-- he does not say how to address that situation.


He says that 75 degrees is an optimum temperature for a chicken, and he talks about chickens suffering from the heat at 100 degrees (25 degrees warmer) and suffering from the cold at 50 degrees (25 degrees cooler.) He talks about chicken comfort, and about whether egg production is affected, but he does not talk about the death rate at different temperatures.

When I read some other sources, I would say he is badly wrong to compare those temperatures.

Here is one example of a source talking about heat stress in chickens.
https://extension.umn.edu/poultry-care-and-management/preventing-heat-stress-poultry
It says, "When air temperature increases towards 100 F, the birds’ core body temperatures will increase to lethal temperatures unless relief is provided."

Here is another source:
https://extension.psu.edu/hot-weather-management-of-poultry
It has a chart of various temperatures, and it also says that "survival is a concern" at temperatures over 100 F.

I can't recall ever seeing an account of a healthy adult chicken that died of cold at 50F. Adult chickens only die at that temperature if they have some kind of health problem.

I do not see this video claiming that 50 degrees is dangerous to the life of adult chicken either. It only points out reduced egg production and concerns about chicken comfort.

So temperatures of 100F and 50F are not equally dangerous to a chicken. If we want to compare temperatures that are equally dangerous to chickens, as measured by death or visible injury, we have to move the low end quite a lot colder.

Regarding egg production, studies are generally done on high-production layers in confinement housing. Simply changing the style of housing can make a big difference to the comfort of the chickens, and change the temperatures at which egg laying is affected. (Case in point: a book from 1949 that recommended a particular style of unheated poultry house, and said that laying was unaffected down to 10F. Book is "Practical Poultry Management", 5th Edition, by James E. Rice and Harold E Botsford. I'm thinking of a bit on page 82.)

In that video, he said that feathers do not always keep a chicken warm enough, and he compared it to a person wearing a vest with a little bit of down (but not enough to keep them warm.) He says that chickens do not grow more down to keep warm-- but he talks as if all chickens are the same in that regard. Some chickens do have more feathers, including more down, than other chickens. It's easy enough to check: look at chickens in a mixed-breed flock, especially comparing breeds that are traditionally considered cold-hardy with those that are not. I've butchered quite a few chickens of different breeds, and I've noticed quite a difference in the amount of feathers on them.

For the few days of actual cold that he gets in Texas, with chicken breeds that are not selected for cold tolerance, and individuals that are not adapted to the cold because they have been living in warm conditions, he may be right to provide heat for his birds. But that does not mean all chickens need heat at those temperatures to be healthy or even to be comfortable.

As someone who has spent many years in northern climates, and read the experiences of many other people who also live in northern climates, I think he grossly underestimates the ability of chickens to be healthy, productive, and reasonably comfortable in cold weather.

 

[StinkyAcres]

This has been a very interesting discussion.

I have a question for @Debbie292d: Do your chickens ever leave your heated coops to go outside and forage etc. when it's really cold outside during the day? It seems if I were to heat my coop (especially to 50*F) my chickens would stay indoors all winter and refuse to leave.

 

[NatJ]

It seems if I were to heat my coop (especially to 50*F) my chickens would stay indoors all winter and refuse to leave.

If that happened, it would be a pretty clear indication that they prefer the warmer temperatures.

If you try it, please do report back with the results.

 

[Ted Brown]

I posted studies that discuss cold stress in birds because a lot of people don’t feel cold stress is an issue, but I think people are stuck on the 50F temp. Here is Dr. Mozisek discussing it:

This is a video of a person with very limited experience expressing his opinions. In no way does this constitute a formal study or scientifically sound set of observations.

Your set of posts above is presented as facts that are based on scientific rigour. You go to the extent of citing numerous studies to support your assertions but fail to point where in those studies the assertions are either stated or proven.

Included in your list is at least one study that DIRECTLY CONTRADICTS YOUR CLAIMS. Other citations have nothing to do with what you are claiming. None support your assertions.

I leave it to readers to come to their own conclusion regarding the validity of what you claim.

I also want to apologize to @IowaCHKN for my part in hijacking their thread.

​

 

[The Bougie Coop]

Thank you!

I think his perception is badly skewed by the fact that he lives in Texas. It also sounds to me like he is giving advice for people in his climate, not for people in all climates.

For example, he can talk about closing up a coop and compromising ventilation for just one or two cold nights. He says that you would not want to do this for extended lengths of time. But his rare nights of cold temperatures are what some northern climates see for months on end-- he does not say how to address that situation.


He says that 75 degrees is an optimum temperature for a chicken, and he talks about chickens suffering from the heat at 100 degrees (25 degrees warmer) and suffering from the cold at 50 degrees (25 degrees cooler.) He talks about chicken comfort, and about whether egg production is affected, but he does not talk about the death rate at different temperatures.

When I read some other sources, I would say he is badly wrong to compare those temperatures.

Here is one example of a source talking about heat stress in chickens.
https://extension.umn.edu/poultry-care-and-management/preventing-heat-stress-poultry
It says, "When air temperature increases towards 100 F, the birds’ core body temperatures will increase to lethal temperatures unless relief is provided."

Here is another source:
https://extension.psu.edu/hot-weather-management-of-poultry
It has a chart of various temperatures, and it also says that "survival is a concern" at temperatures over 100 F.

I can't recall ever seeing an account of a healthy adult chicken that died of cold at 50F. Adult chickens only die at that temperature if they have some kind of health problem.

I do not see this video claiming that 50 degrees is dangerous to the life of adult chicken either. It only points out reduced egg production and concerns about chicken comfort.

So temperatures of 100F and 50F are not equally dangerous to a chicken. If we want to compare temperatures that are equally dangerous to chickens, as measured by death or visible injury, we have to move the low end quite a lot colder.

Regarding egg production, studies are generally done on high-production layers in confinement housing. Simply changing the style of housing can make a big difference to the comfort of the chickens, and change the temperatures at which egg laying is affected. (Case in point: a book from 1949 that recommended a particular style of unheated poultry house, and said that laying was unaffected down to 10F. Book is "Practical Poultry Management", 5th Edition, by James E. Rice and Harold E Botsford. I'm thinking of a bit on page 82.)

In that video, he said that feathers do not always keep a chicken warm enough, and he compared it to a person wearing a vest with a little bit of down (but not enough to keep them warm.) He says that chickens do not grow more down to keep warm-- but he talks as if all chickens are the same in that regard. Some chickens do have more feathers, including more down, than other chickens. It's easy enough to check: look at chickens in a mixed-breed flock, especially comparing breeds that are traditionally considered cold-hardy with those that are not. I've butchered quite a few chickens of different breeds, and I've noticed quite a difference in the amount of feathers on them.

For the few days of actual cold that he gets in Texas, with chicken breeds that are not selected for cold tolerance, and individuals that are not adapted to the cold because they have been living in warm conditions, he may be right to provide heat for his birds. But that does not mean all chickens need heat at those temperatures to be healthy or even to be comfortable.

As someone who has spent many years in northern climates, and read the experiences of many other people who also live in northern climates, I think he grossly underestimates the ability of chickens to be healthy, productive, and reasonably comfortable in cold weather.

Thank you for your rational and non-snarky replies.

No one is saying chickens are dying at 50F. And yes, some chickens are going to tolerate cooler temps because they are fluffier or stockier breeds. A Leghorn is a sleek, tight feathered bird with huge combs and wattles, whereas a Wyandotte is a stocky bird with a lot more floof and smaller combs and wattles. The Wyandotte was bred to have physical characteristics that are more cold tolerant. However, many many many people will say that because a chicken’s body temp averages 106F, they are little furnaces and don’t need heat, and this is actually backwards. I mean, maintaining a body temp of 106F takes a ton of energy, and when the temps start to get cold, the chicken is going to to have to start using energy it normally would use to do body repair, resist parasites (and all chickens carry some parasite load 100% of the time, even in winter), regulate hormones, produce eggs, etc.. We can supply extra calories, that always helps, but once it starts getting really cold the extra calories can only do so much. By offering heat, we give the chickens the ability to keep warm without having to utilize all that extra energy, and then that energy can be used for maintaining the normal body processes. Yes, chickens can certainly survive in super cold temps, but it takes a big toll on them physiologically, and it is surviving, not thriving. My goal is to allow my girls to thrive through winter, so once spring and warmer temps come back, they are not playing catch-up physiologically.

And the other thing is that giving your chickens heat doesn’t mean you need to heat the entire coop. Chickens should have choices. Some are going to want to be warm, others will be ok with being cooler. Just like us, and other animals. Some like it colder, others want warmer. But it’s allowing them to decide to move closer to the heat or away from it. I watch my birds do it all the time because I don’t heat the entire coop.

We also need to think about it in the sense that because chickens do run an average of 106F, 50F is going to feel colder to them than it would for us.

I understand that chickens have lived without heat for hundreds of years, but they had no choice, we lacked the ability to safely heat their coops and we also lacked the information we have now about what effects cold stress has on them. But we do have that information now, and we do have the ability to safely offer them the choice to warm up.

It’s so awful when people post about how chickens don’t need heat and then those same people are posting a few days later asking for help on how to treat frostbite. How can someone say that their chickens are doing just fine in the cold coop at night when they wake up with frostbitten combs and wattles? If I were waking up with frostbite, I wouldn’t say I was doing just fine in the cold.

And maybe people who have been keeping chickens with no heat have chickens that seem to doing just fine, but again I say chickens are prey animals and absolutely will not show if they aren’t doing just fine, and since we can’t ask them how they are actually doing, we rely on measuring things that we can quantify, which is where the studies come in. And for those who don’t heat, their situation isn’t everyone else’s, and their condescending comments towards those who maybe want to offer heat or do offer heat makes new chicken owners afraid to even discuss it for fear of being told they’re stupid for even thinking it.

I am a vet tech and I have dedicated my life to speak for those who cannot and I will continue to do so.

If people choose to not supply heat, those birds are their birds and it is pointless to argue with someone who is so convinced their experience is the only correct one. I am just going to keep presenting the information showing cold stress is a real thing and what it does physiologically and hope that someone else might benefit from the knowledge.

 

[StinkyAcres]

Thank you for your rational and non-snarky replies.

No one is saying chickens are dying at 50F. And yes, some chickens are going to tolerate cooler temps because they are fluffier or stockier breeds. A Leghorn is a sleek, tight feathered bird with huge combs and wattles, whereas a Wyandotte is a stocky bird with a lot more floof and smaller combs and wattles. The Wyandotte was bred to have physical characteristics that are more cold tolerant. However, many many many people will say that because a chicken’s body temp averages 106F, they are little furnaces and don’t need heat, and this is actually backwards. I mean, maintaining a body temp of 106F takes a ton of energy, and when the temps start to get cold, the chicken is going to to have to start using energy it normally would use to do body repair, resist parasites (and all chickens carry some parasite load 100% of the time, even in winter), regulate hormones, produce eggs, etc.. We can supply extra calories, that always helps, but once it starts getting really cold the extra calories can only do so much. By offering heat, we give the chickens the ability to keep warm without having to utilize all that extra energy, and then that energy can be used for maintaining the normal body processes. Yes, chickens can certainly survive in super cold temps, but it takes a big toll on them physiologically, and it is surviving, not thriving. My goal is to allow my girls to thrive through winter, so once spring and warmer temps come back, they are not playing catch-up physiologically.

And the other thing is that giving your chickens heat doesn’t mean you need to heat the entire coop. Chickens should have choices. Some are going to want to be warm, others will be ok with being cooler. Just like us, and other animals. Some like it colder, others want warmer. But it’s allowing them to decide to move closer to the heat or away from it. I watch my birds do it all the time because I don’t heat the entire coop.

We also need to think about it in the sense that because chickens do run an average of 106F, 50F is going to feel colder to them than it would for us.

I understand that chickens have lived without heat for hundreds of years, but they had no choice, we lacked the ability to safely heat their coops and we also lacked the information we have now about what effects cold stress has on them. But we do have that information now, and we do have the ability to safely offer them the choice to warm up.

It’s so awful when people post about how chickens don’t need heat and then those same people are posting a few days later asking for help on how to treat frostbite. How can someone say that their chickens are doing just fine in the cold coop at night when they wake up with frostbitten combs and wattles? If I were waking up with frostbite, I wouldn’t say I was doing just fine in the cold.

And maybe people who have been keeping chickens with no heat have chickens that seem to doing just fine, but again I say chickens are prey animals and absolutely will not show if they aren’t doing just fine, and since we can’t ask them how they are actually doing, we rely on measuring things that we can quantify, which is where the studies come in. And for those who don’t heat, their situation isn’t everyone else’s, and their condescending comments towards those who maybe want to offer heat or do offer heat makes new chicken owners afraid to even discuss it for fear of being told they’re stupid for even thinking it.

I am a vet tech and I have dedicated my life to speak for those who cannot and I will continue to do so.

If people choose to not supply heat, those birds are their birds and it is pointless to argue with someone who is so convinced their experience is the only correct one. I am just going to keep presenting the information showing cold stress is a real thing and what it does physiologically and hope that someone else might benefit from the knowledge.

I'm curious about how you set up heaters in your coop. Do all your birds sleep under heaters at night? Do your birds want to go out into the freezing run or do they stay inside near the heaters all winter?

 

[The Bougie Coop]

I'm curious about how you set up heaters in your coop. Do all your birds sleep under heaters at night? Do your birds want to go out into the freezing run or do they stay inside near the heaters all winter?

I have a Sweeter Heater that is set up over one of my roosts. It is hooked to the ceiling with chains so I can bring it higher or lower depending on how cold it will be. The chickens don’t stay inside the coop all day, they are in and out but if it’s really snowy and cold they will stay in the run and occasionally I will see them head back into the coop to hang out, especially my teenagers, and on really cold days (negative temps which we don’t get here too much) I will see certain ones up on the roost by the heater. But they don’t stay up there all the time, they go up, spend a bit, come back down and usually wander back out to the run.

At night, it varies. I didn’t move the heater up higher tonight, and it’s about 56F in the coop right now so the girls have mainly decided they don’t want to be under it and are on the roosts that aren’t heated. Last night was opposite, the coop was down to around 40F and most everyone was under the heat. It’s actually really interesting to watch them move around.

 

[StinkyAcres]

I have a Sweeter Heater that is set up over one of my roosts. It is hooked to the ceiling with chains so I can bring it higher or lower depending on how cold it will be. The chickens don’t stay inside the coop all day, they are in and out but if it’s really snowy and cold they will stay in the run and occasionally I will see them head back into the coop to hang out, especially my teenagers, and on really cold days (negative temps which we don’t get here too much) I will see certain ones up on the roost by the heater. But they don’t stay up there all the time, they go up, spend a bit, come back down and usually wander back out to the run.

At night, it varies. I didn’t move the heater up higher tonight, and it’s about 56F in the coop right now so the girls have mainly decided they don’t want to be under it and are on the roosts that aren’t heated. Last night was opposite, the coop was down to around 40F and most everyone was under the heat. It’s actually really interesting to watch them move around.

Nice! I have a Sweeter Heater but it's not big enough for all my chickens to use it at once. I notice that when it's in the single digits or below, if I put my hand on it I can't feel the heat at all and wonder if it's the same for the birds. Most of my birds look like they don't even know it's there.

 

[The Bougie Coop]

Nice! I have a Sweeter Heater but it's not big enough for all my chickens to use it at once. I notice that when it's in the single digits or below, if I put my hand on it I can't feel the heat at all and wonder if it's the same for the birds. Most of my birds look like they don't even know it's there.

You should definitely feel the heat if you are putting your hand on the panel that faces the birds no matter what the air temp is, that’s weird. You won’t feel any heat on the backside of it though. If you have it plugged in and the panel doesn’t feel warm at all, I would reach out to Sweeter Heater.

When it gets very cold, I drop the heater so it’s about 6 to 8 inches above the backs of the birds. If it isn’t too cold, I usually keep it around 10 inches above them.

 

[Debbie292d]

This has been a very interesting discussion.

I have a question for @Debbie292d: Do your chickens ever leave your heated coops to go outside and forage etc. when it's really cold outside during the day? It seems if I were to heat my coop (especially to 50*F) my chickens would stay indoors all winter and refuse to leave.

Yes, most go outside all winter, provided hubby shovels paths for them, and the wind chills aren't too bad. Usually, we don't let them out if it's below 20°F, though. The coops are heated to 40°F, and some do not leave, whom I call wussies.

The ground is covered with snow, so he tries to make them a path down to the dead grass/dirt, but it's frozen so not sure how much foraging they're doing. It's just for them to get out mostly, something to do I guess.

These were some younger ones a couple of weeks ago that didn't wait. They came from that growout pen you can see part of in the background. He eventually swept them an area and I threw out some scrambled eggs and Henhouse Reserve (scratch).


Here are older ones last winter. This was about 1/3 of them from that coop that came out.