Help me diagnose de-pluming mites!

[Saveria]

I appreciate that. All of my evidence for using DE for internal parasites is strictly empirical. Here is what happened-

I feed Green Mountain Organic feed, a brand specific to Vermont. DE is an ingredient in all their poultry feed.

During the winter it was unavailable for a few months. We switched to another Vermont brand. That brand does not have DE in it.

A week later one of my orpingtons looks ill. I try to treat her with corid in the coop, she peps up, I set her back out with the flock. I do this a couple times, trying different remedies, eventually bring her inside. I was researching like crazy, and was about to get a dewormer since that was the last thing I could think of. She doesn't make it because it is too late and I don't get the chance to get it. I still don't know what she died from, but she was my broody hen that wouldn't quit. I am afraid that she wore down her strength like that and it made her like a canary for illness.

That same time orpington #2 in coop/run looks sick with the exact same thing. This is when I realized they aren't eating any DE like they used to be. I put DE in the food each morning. That orpintgton looks immediately better and never has signs of illness again.

Flash forward to this month- my pretty little whiting blue hen looks the same way that Orpington did (hunched, ruffled feathers, tail drooping). I realize again we have been feeding them the food with no DE again. Feed her some DE in the feed and she looks better the next day.

I can't explain it, and I agree that DE is not the best for most things, but this is what keeps happening to me.

Also, one thing about the permethrin, a lot of people on here say that it won't work for DPM and that you have to use Ivermectin. I haven't tried both, so I can't speak to that, but that was the consensus when I researched. Maybe another person can comment if that is 100% true or not.

Thank you so much for your added input!

 

[EggSighted4Life]

one thing about the permethrin, a lot of people on here say that it won't work for DPM and that you have to use Ivermectin.

That's correct, accurate, and 100% true.

Permethrin is NOT considered effective against depluming or scaly leg mites. (I only suggested because we had both agreed & ruled that out) Thank you for being thorough and clarifying!

I feed Green Mountain Organic feed, a brand specific to Vermont. DE is an ingredient in all their poultry feed.

During the winter it was unavailable for a few months. We switched to another Vermont brand. That brand does not have DE in it

It's approved as an anti caking agent in animal feeds at a rate of up to 2% in the US. None of them claim internal parasite fighting power.

I still don't know what she died from

Sorry for your loss!

Broody's are a challenge. There may be more to the story.. with more birds showing symptoms.

Please consider refrigerating and sending into your state lab for a necropsy (if another passes). Contact info follows..

Vermont Department ofAgriculture Laboratories
103 South Main Street
Waterbury, VT 05671-0101 US
802-244-4510
fax: 802-241-3008

I can't explain it, and I agree that DE is not the best for most things, but this is what keeps happening to me.

Interesting, thanks for sharing!

I would suggest starting another thread for further diagnosis if you don't already have one going.. Sounds like DE might be hiding symptoms of something (different from treating/correcting it).. possibly because it's an absorbent and *may* be decreasing diarrhea somehow.. Again, just discussion as I am here to learn also.

I don't mean to fear monger but I do have attention to detail issues when things don't fully add up like your illnesses and DE.. which is good attention to detail btw.. I'm not denying your observations! If you notice something off in your birds, you're usually right! I do have more questions, thoughts, and considerations but hijacking this thread is neither of our intent and might not be as helpful for anyone involved. Tag me if I you start another thread and can put up with anymore.

Hope your crew continues to thrive!

 

[Saveria]

I'll do that when I get a chance

I think you are right, it is good to seek out the highest truth for the sake of the birds.

Thank you again!

 

[shakin_the_trees]

Hi there, welcome to BYC!

You can't prevent what you don't have.. you can only treat it once it's there. Standard bio security like not bringing in new birds from other places and not hanging bird feeders to attract wildlife and rodent control can be helpful.

I agree that it does not appear to be depluming mites.. which I have taken a bird to the vet to verify when feathers weren't growing back in. I'm not great at identifying exactly which species of lice or mite but here is an article that may help..

https://the-chicken-chick.com/poultry-lice-and-mites-identification/

That current feather condition will not really improve until they molt even though you treat effectively. The skin condition SHOULD improve quickly once treated! A couple links to my favorite veterinary resource..

https://www.merckvetmanual.com/poultry/ectoparasites/lice-of-poultry

https://www.merckvetmanual.com/poultry/ectoparasites/mites-of-poultry

The lice are even body part specific and may not travel to other parts.. like the head louse, body louse, or shaft louse. That's why my following statement has specific locations for the suggested spritz.

My preferred treatment is a ready mixed permethrin based "horse fly" spray.. Found in the equine section comes in many brand names and also different concentrations to be mixed down. it's very effective, easy to use, affordable (under $10), labeled for use in poultry, safe on chicks, and requires NO egg withdrawal! Soaking NOT required.. just a small spritz below the vent, under each wing pit, and to the back of the neck at the base of the head.. NOT safe for use on cats. Also for use on walls, perimeter, lay boxes, roosts, etc.

It's good to get familiar with YOUR parasite load conditions and treat accordingly. Soil type, weather pattern, stock density, wildlife load, etc ALL vary. I NEVER just treat without verifying need.. resistance is WAY to large a problem to ignore and I like stuff to be effective WHEN needed. I do monthly after dark checks (or treatment) with a flashlight (headlamp) keeping it dark, as that's the easiest way to NEVER chase birds and also to see crawlies running away on their skin.

The only internal parasites that can be seen in droppings is large round worms (including thread) and tape worms. All other will only pass microscopic oocysts (eggs) and even then only intermittently, possibly to never show up on a fecal floats.

What you are seeing right now is indeed indicator of a need to treat. Even if all are not showing symptoms equally.. DO treat ALL so that those less effected won't become new sitting targets.

Big difference in what?

There are studies that show DE is NOT effective against internal parasites OR in wet conditions or on external parasites in humid conditions (like mine here on the coast). It even says so right on the package.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Diatomaceous_earth

"Medical-grade diatomite has been studied for its efficacy as a deworming agent in cattle; in both studies cited the groups being treated with diatomaceous earth did not fare any better than control groups"

The control group is the one not treated or given a placebo.

I invite ALL folks who use DE as internal parasite treatment to get before and after fecal float counts to verify load and efficacy of treatment. So far none will put their money where their mouth is and rather enjoy their false sense of security.

Despite my disagreeing about DE.. I do think you were very helpful AND tried to present a well rounded and accurate, informative series of suggestions.. never indicating that yours was the only or even the best way but just A way. No rudeness intended here, I enjoyed and value your posts.. just discussion.

Wow! I love all of your recommendations. Its so nice to have people to ask questions as Im so new to all of this. And Stressed! I was able to look at the chickens vent areas and under wings tonight with flashlights. I didnt see any bugs crawling around, or any signs of mites red or brown dots or anything. Mostly just the feathers. Can molting cause them to look ratty? Some of the feathers on the leghorns do look like "mold spots' Which is why I thought either depluming, or feather mites. I bought premetherin, but didnt apply yet as I just got the chickens into a new coop. (Which they hate). Should I go ahead and treat anyways since there are signs of some sort of mite/lice?

 

[Saveria]

Is this what you mean by "mold spots"? Some of these pictures have that appearance.

https://bitchinchickens.com/2019/10/31/lice/

I feel like I am not sure whether you have feather eating mites, depluming mites, lice or a combination, but what you can do is treat with the permethrin and see what it does, then let us know if the problem is not resolved and we can give you instructions for the next thing to try. Sometimes you have to treat with trial and error here, because symptoms and infestations can overlap with these kinds of critters.

Or you could try to post some more photos of what you are seeing, and get some more folks to confirm if you need something else to treat, too. My understanding is that permethrin is gentle enough, though, I don't think you will harm them by trying it.

I totally understand the stressed part, I feel that way if my chickens don't seem healthy, too. I think I have gotten a little more used to it as the years have gone by. I realized at some point that a lot of them don't have a long time on the planet no matter what you do, so you just have to try to make it the best for them that you can while they are here

 

[EggSighted4Life]

Can molting cause them to look ratty?

Yes, but in a different manner and it never causes crusty or scabby skin. That (coupled with feather condition) is a clear indicator of parasite presence IMO even if they aren't able to be seen.

Age.. Being close to or needing to molt.. before their first major "mature" molt is when the feathers often look their worst in my experience.. Mounting by roosters, flock dynamics, and nutrition can also impact this.

The feathers we're seeing (with no barb and only the shaft) have been over preened, or eaten by parasites, or both.

Should I go ahead and treat anyways since there are signs of some sort of mite/lice?

I definitely would. And I would also be sure to do the follow up treatment in 10-14 days. Break the cycle completely if possible.

Is this what you mean by "mold spots"? Some of these pictures have that appearance.

I've described those egg sacks as dried up mud clumps.. but white moldy looking might be a better description!

I will repeat (for the OP) that feather condition will NOT improve until molt.. even then only the feathers that molt out and get replaced will be back to fresh. During molt the whole feather comes out and it looks like a feather pillow exploded nearby where they roost. The hens usually will NOT lay eggs during that time either, in case you've not experienced it before. Since laying hormone is light triggered and molt *usually* happens as light is decreasing (fall/winter), they usually return back to lay after light increases back above 12 hours.

Quick note that checking at night (like you did) does also help to see roost mites (since you just changed coops).. which don't live on the birds but only come out to feed on them at night. (often checked by running a white paper towel under the roost). Maybe your other coop is harboring roost mites?? Well, that would be relative more to skin condition than feather condition.. but it's still something to consider.

Even though the STRUCTURE of feathers doesn't improve immediately after treatment until molt, I do still think there is a quantifiable difference in the shine/dullness and overall more healthy appearance of the birds (and no crusty skin) within a couple weeks.