HELP! new Maremma LGD puppy owners; questions/advice please!

[6littlechickies]

we've been doing a lot of research into acquiring an LGD to protect our flock. After a lot of reading and talking with various breeders we decided on a Maremma. We spoke with several breeders and were anticipating at minimum a 5+ hour drive to pick one up until we happened upon a breeder local to us. He had a total of 5 pups left (3 girls, 2 boys) that were born around Thanksgiving, so about 14 weeks old now. We were thrilled to find someone so close. He had also purchased from another well known breeder in our state so we were pretty excited.

Went down Saturday afternoon and picked out a sweet girl. One was very, very shy and he could not even catch her so she was eliminated right off. The other two girls were both put into a smaller enclosure (around 8x10) area so we could take a closer look at each. Of those two, one had more feminine features and seemed more active, the other was keeping more distance and sitting watching what was going on (similar to what mom and dad were doing). The breeder had two adult females and a male, plus all the pups. All were working together, guarding a herd of alpacas. The breeder didn't currently have any poultry but had in the recent past. He had no issue with us bringing a couple of our chickens to his place to get the pups initial reaction--we know there will be a lot of work to train the pup with our birds but wanted to try to gauge who might have the better instinct for the birds.

So, anyway, we took girl #1 and girl #2 and two of the chickens we brought (roo and hen) and all went into a fenced area to see how they reacted. pup #1, the more feminine one, was very curious and interested in them, didn't make any movement to hurt them at all, just typical puppy curiosity, she seemed to get distracted easily and kept coming up to us and our kiddos to say hi. pup #2, the more aloof one, sat back and watched everything. she never once made any jump towards the birds but did come over when the breeder called her but had a much more 'serious' look to her. We opted for this pup as we thought she seemed more serious about her job. The breeder was very nice and helpful, offered to assist us in any way and answer any other questions that came up. She has had all her shots and been seen by the breeder's vet. We signed all our papers, loaded everyone up and drove home.

Poor little girl had not been in a car before and did get sick on the way home but once we got her home she seemed better. We decided it best to keep her in the barn with all the poultry to get her acclimated to them as soon as possible. Luckily, we have inside pens setup for all our birds so she can see them all but not get to anyone. I set her up with a cozy area with soft hay and a thin blanket, put her food (breeder gave us a small bag to help transition) and water and left her for a couple hours to get comfortable. Later that night, husband and I went down and sat with her for a while, she is very, very shy and seems kind of scared of us but we noticed she had moved around the barn some and had eaten and drank. I do somewhat expect shyness as she has no clue who we are, why she's here and what the future holds. she went from guarding alpacas with mom, dad and several siblings to our farm, by herself, expected to guards poultry and pygmy goats! I can understand the confusion!

The last couple days we have been going down every few hours to spend a little time with her and get her used to us. She still seems really scared, she isn't at all interested in coming to us (not sure if she should be though as this is our first LGD) but is eating and drinking great. We did get her a big bone to chew yesterday and i put it right on her paws last night (so she knew it was for her) but I found it untouched this morning. We've been bringing her up to the house for a couple hours at a time so she can get more used to the family and us but she just seems to find a 'safe' corner and hide there. we have a collar on her and I did try to get her to walk with me today but she will only go a couple steps and then she stops, sits and tries to get out of it and away from me. We've been carrying her from the barn to the house and back but we really need to get her more comfortable on a leash or at least able to walk next to us.

We are trying to work with her slowly but could really use some advice from other owners with more experience. we really want this to work and are ready and willing to put forth the effort just need some guidance. Can anyone out there with Maremma's give new owners some advice? Should we have went with one of the less timid girls? the breeder said if we needed to exchange that was no problem but I really, really hate to do that. We've never done that before, granted we've never had an LGD before BUT one of our 'pet' dogs was an abused rescue that was about as timid and shy as it gets and we were able to work through that with her so we hope to have the same success here. We just want to be sure we are taking the right steps and we know the mindset of LGD's is different than your family pet.

What can we do to help her transition to our home better? Should I leash her in the house and try to work with her slowly there? It is not our intention to leash her regularly but I do want her to walk with us when needed. We plan to use electronic fencing to keep her in our area, should we start that right away? With our other dogs we walked them around the area they were allowed in but with her not walking on a leash I'm not sure how we teach her what is her 'safe' area?
gosh, i feel like such a fool here, we tried to do lots of research ahead of time and really tried to find a good fit but i'm feeling really clueless right about now.

 

[Nana2KJS]

Poor baby - not a LGD person, but sympathize with your plight.

Vet check or not, she may not be well. Rather sounds like there is something more than just shyness going on. We chose the "quiet" pom one time; turns out she was very sick. Took awhile to get her well and bouncy again.

I think perhaps I would have my own vet look her over, to make sure this isn't a health issue of some kind.

Good luck - and she's gorgeous btw.

 

[honeydoll]

Hey. I got chickens from you awhile ago. We came up from Canton. Hope all is well with you guys. Our kiddos played together as we talked chickens. See you've gotten a beautiful pup there! Congrats. Hope it works out for you. We are looking for a good protector too. Maremma I have heard are good dogs.

Take care!

Carolyn

 

[Barred Rocks forever]

bear footfarms breeds maremmas id talk to them i dont think your supose to leash them up to much beacuse there supose to be just with the stock but im not expert i belev LGDs are supose to be timid toward people here you can give them a yell https://www.backyardchickens.com/forum/profile.php?id=8212

 

[xchairity_casex]

firstly you should have gone with the first girl the more outgoing one. secondly i dont perticularly care for this breeders dogs attitudes being very shy towards people? thats not what you want from a dog at all not even one to protect your livestock. a dog needs to be able to trust in people even to be a good guard dog/watch dog.
this puppy is sensative meaning its going to be a sensative dog. sensative dogs are quicker to bite so be prepared. im not saying youve got an aggressive dog on your hands she may never bite anyone or nething but sensative dogs are prone to bite becuase they are sensative to sudden movements and new people or new pets. next time you pick out a puppy although the one that just barges right in to get a good look might seem like it will be a tough case those are actually the better puppies for first time owners since they are not timid and are able to tolerate the inexperinced trainer/owner better. you can make mistakes with training on an outgoing puppy you cant do that with a sensative one one little mistake like correcting to roughly or at the wrong time can set training back 100 percent.

im my own opinion i would exchange this puppy for the more outgoing one BUT if your eharts set on this little one heres a few tips.
with this type of puppy you shouldnt show any strong enotion not even excitedness when it does somthing good dont get loud or excited with the praise most trainers will tell you to use lots of praise which man people take to mean "get really excited and jump around" not with this puppy let praise be very genlte and calm a good quite scratch behind the ears should suffice.

never ever allow people to approach her with direct eye contact!!! this also includes family members when you aproach her donot look at her. a good excersize for gaining her trust is grab a nice strongly scented treat like a warm hotdog or piece of cheese walk over beside her and turning your side to ehr (not front on) crouch donw dont look at her or talk to her but hold the treat out and let her come to you.

alot of people think that babytalking a shy dog helps no it doesnt especielly a puppy who has no intrest in going toward you.

so try to spend as much time with her as you can just ignoreing her basically take a book with you and sit down on the floor with a pocketfull of yummy treatrs and just sit and read if she ever approaches you donot ackknowledge her but hold a treat out to her if she takes it good but dont push it. you can read alod to yourself if you like but again donot acknowledge her if she is ignoreing bones she is shutting down and thats not good becuase she will elarn to always shut down around people.

once she starts approaching you for treats you can begin to touch her donot touch her ontop of the head or the back this will be very intimidating to her instead go for under the chin and neck and around the ears this shows her your giving her respect but never try to grabher or hold her while your touching her and allow her to walk away whenever she wants. and while your petting ehr donot give her any eye contact this will also be intimidating to her.
once she is regularly allowing you to touch her when she comes for atreat you can introduce a thin slip lead to her let her sniff it and touch her with it once shes comfortable put it on her and let her walk around with it on for a few hours do this everyday.
its not going to be easy to gain her trust since it really sounds as though the breeder jsut let them run loose with no human interaction.

once shes tarts trusting th family and you want to begin introducing her to people(of which you should do often!!) there should be rules for the enw peple who want to meet her.
no touching her
no looking at her
and no talking to her
give them some yummy treats and jsut have them sit on floor and ignore her holding out a treat.
NEVER EVER EVER let anyone just run up to her or just try reaching out to grab at her!!! becuase if she feels like she is not safe and that people donot respect her theres a good chance later on if this keeps happening to her that she will start growling and eventually begin biting at people to get them to elave her alone and we dont want that to happen. if you have any more questions just ask i can give you much betetr specifics if you want but this is jsut a genral over view lol i hope everything goes well andl et me know about the progress!

 

[Bear Foot Farm]

You will need to work her on the leash as much as possible befores she gets a lot bigger.

Most Maremmas are highly intelligent, and will learn quickly if you just take the time to teach them what you want.

In a few months she could weigh close to 100 lbs, and needs to be trained NOW.

I would NOT be bringing her in the house or keep her tied at any time.

If you want a Guardian, she needs to be with the birds all the time.
If you want a pet, you got the wrong breed.

DO get her used to the electric fences ASAP.
She needs to learn her boundaries.

It will be traumatic the first time or two she touches it, but that's how they learn
Always spend time with her WHERE THE BIRDS ARE.

Maremmas thrive on routines, since they are conditioned to notice anything out of place.
The more consistant YOU are, the easier it will be for all of you

She will not be comfortable in the house, and she's not protecting anything while inside.

Here are some good hints on how LGD's are NOT like "regular" dogs:

http://www.bountifulfarm.com/lgd_seminar.htm

She's gorgeous, by the way.

 

[Peck Johnson]

I think your Maremma will be just fine.

We started feeding a stray dog (probably a shepherd/husky mix) years ago that learned to respect our chicken flock (probably got attacked by one mean rooster) and she, being a free roamer, kept all the coyotes and other predators away. After three loyal years, she got lyme and had to be put down because of kidney failure. Within a week we could hear the coyotes closing in and knew we had to get a LGD. Having reasearched, we decided that the Maremma would be a good fit and were lucky to find a local farmer with a 3 month old pup.

For the first few days he was very sad looking and we were having the same feelings you expressed, worried that there might be something wrong with him. He always seemed reluctant to seek attention, respond to our calls, or be interested in doing anything at all. Very shy and untrusting it seemed. He was curious about the chickens but we kept them separated at first out of our own fear of him getting playful or trying to bite. In fact, for the first year he was very grabby at us with his mouth which always made me suspicious and untrusting of him. But I learned that this is just how some of them are - he never, ever, has used his mouth with any force, but it was plenty annoying when he would grab at a shirt cuff or anything dangling. After four months we decided that there was no use keeping him in the house anymore at all as he didn't seem to like being inside at all, even though it was still a cold March in New York. To this day he won't even step fully into the garage, always mindful of staying outside and alert. So, eventually he was moved to the fenced arena (4 foot horse fencing) where our coops are, that we then divided with another length of fence so that he was always with the chickens but could not get at them. When we were home we would let them together under supervision. The following spring I fenced the entire property with cattle fence and since then he has been completely free except on the few occasions where we might have many visitors and the gates are open so we put him in the arena. At about one year old we stopped supervising him with the chickens, but in hindsite I think we could have done that earlier.

One important thing to remember: Boundaries. If given the chance he will explore very far which leaves his charge vulerable to predators. He always willingly comes back but it still is not safe to allow that behavior. We are totally fenced in now but there have been a few times he found a weak spot in the cattle fence that we had to secure, or a gate was left open by mistake. Maremmas will always take the opportunity to increase their boundaries so that behavior has to be kept in check. Also, he has to be monitored closely with any visitors. While friendly to people who he has been introduced to, at 100 pounds, he can be imposing. People often treat dogs by petting them right away, thinking that he is like most dogs and wants to be pet. While he does like being pet, that contact will often be reciprocated by pushing, pawing, any other excited behaviors that could knock someone down. I often tell visitors to reserve themselves by not paying much attention to him until he is completely calm.

Sad to say but I don't know how well an electronic fence will work. These are very strong dogs with completely independent wills and will probably not be detered by shock like you would want. More likely, she will get past the line and then be reluctant to come back. You really should think about 4 foot cattle fence, tensioned. Maremmas are very strong willed and physically strong as well, stronger than you think, and will be able to dig under or push down an insufficient fence. I don't know of anyone being successful with the electric fence and many Maremma owners would advise against that.

Don't worry about the shyness. It seems to take a while to get used to any place or any person. Remember, they are independent by nature and question everything before they decide. I have had many dogs in my life and our Maremma is so vastly different that I am always amazed. That being said I don't think I will ever own another breed but a Maremma (or maybe a cousin like the Great Pyr or Kuvacz).

Same thing with the bones. Every other dog I have had relished and devoured bones. Our Maremma will gladly take a fresh bone (never use cooked or pork bones!) but usually just buries it, then we'll see it months later in the yard, chewed up.

Two and a half years after getting him and he is absolutely the best dog I could imagine. He eats, hangs out, and sometimes even sleeps with the few outcast chickens in the doghouse. But he usually just sleeps in the yard near the coop unless it is cold, rainy or windy. He is still very aloof and will not come immediately when called. He has to decide how to react and I think that is just part of the breed. The mouthiness is less and less of an issue but he still can be pushy if allowed to be.

You already know that Maremma's are not like other dogs and this can be disconcerting, but patience is best. Leash training is important but it will be frustrating because of their strength and independence. We only leash leash him when it is time to go to the vet. Oh, and that is always a fiasco! He does not want to get into the car to go anywhere and still gets carsick half the time even on the short trip to the vet. Then when we get there he does not want to go inside so sometimes it takes a long while for him to decide that it is OK. Always remember patience. They will just resist and put on the brakes if forced against their will and with all that loose fur they can easily pull out from the collar, and then you are screwed.

We trained to SIT, DOWN, and COME. But that only works when he decides to, so don't expect to much with commands. I had a lab years ago that I swear understood exactly what I said and I thought and that was great, but that is never going to happen with a Maremma. They are intelligent but will not immediately obey commands unless they decide to.

Don't be worried. Your tone sounds just like how we felt at first and we worried for nothing in the end. Our Maremma is great with the chickens and even with them loose all year long we have never lost one to a predator. And, although he can get playful sometimes with them we have never seen one injured. One problem we do have is that since the coop is open day and night he will steal any eggs that he can get at. But that is just our irresponsibility and we can accept that.

I fully disagree with Out of the Brooder's post that suggested that you trade for the other more outgoing Maremma. The outgoing one's have been known to be more likely to forget about the flock and wander off. I think you chose the right one. Although, I do agree with many of Out of the Brooder's and Bear Foot Farm's suggestions. I would definitely get your Maremma out of the house as soon as possible and living with the flock and goats full time. Maremma's don't need to be indoors and if yours is anything like mine, she won't want to be anyway.

Hope this helps. Email me if you have any concerns, I am glad to help. Love the Maremma.

 

[Peck Johnson]

Rest easy with a Maremma.

 

[6littlechickies]

It's been a few months and I just thought I'd send out an update to everyone.

First off, I want to thank everyone (esp you Peck) for your advice and thoughts. We've read through everything and have really been working with Juno over the last few months. I'm sooo happy to say we are seeing amazing progress! just amazing!

We have fenced in a large portion of our yard now so she has access to all the animals and lots of room to run about. We do plan to fence in the remaining portion of our area this fall and next spring so she'll have almost our entire property available to her. We wanted to see how she would do with the first portion before doing the whole 3 acres, fortunately she seems very happy to patrol the area she does have and we've even had a couple nights that we've forgotten to shut the main gate and have found she happily stays within the fenced area regardless.
We had a few stumbling points early on and it took us a while to really earn her trust but we have already come so far. Juno mostly stays in the barn during the day but can come outside whenever she wants as I keep the main barn door open. She tends to spend most of her days just relaxing unless she sees some kind of threat. When evening starts to roll around she moves into super patrol duty! She's out and about, making passes by each of the three gates and then over to the goat barn, back to the main barn and then starts all over. We've found her to be very observant and alert to potential problems. she barks to alert if she spots anything out of the ordinary. At this point, with her being about 7 months old, we are very pleased with her skills. She has also taught herself a few handy 'tricks' that help me out quite a bit. also shows me just how observant and SMART she really is. First thing she learned was with our flock of BCM; even though they have a lovely indoor pen with a large outdoor run, whenever we go into their pen they try to push their way out of the door and into the barn (well, as soon as I you walk away from the door they do). Miss Juno saw that we would shoo them back into their pen and decided she was going to do something about that! Now, when I go into that pen, Juno will come up behind me, wait for me to close that door and then sit right in front of it, blocking the birds from getting out. This may seem like a small thing to everyone else but was a HUGE feat for us and we were really excited to see her just 'learn' to do this on her own. She also watches when I go into my peafowl pens, just to make sure none of them are going towards the door...if she see's them making a move to it, she goes and blocks that as well. Her newest trick she's just picked up in the last few weeks and I'm still in awe over this one....our goats just LOVE going into the main barn and making a giant mess. (At some point I want to make more of a permanent fix but as things are now, the fencing opens right up to the main barn so they can get into it if the door is open.) Juno had watched me chase them out for a week or so, watching my moves intently. Much to my delight we've now watched her chase them out of the barn and back into their 'area' several times. GO Juno!

She keeps a very close eye on all our animals (chickens, peafowl, goats, she loves them all!) and so far has pretty much stopped the neighbor dog from even coming on our property which had been a major issue for us. With the way our fencing is setup now, she doesn't get anywhere close to the neighbor dog but that dog doesn't even attempt to run over at random anymore, so another 'score' for Juno! The neighbor (and dog) were walking the edge of their property the other day and the dog saw Juno outside and ran over there to see her. I went to say hello to the neighbor and she was commenting on how cute the two dog were together and how Juno wanted to play with her dog. um, nope....Juno was NOT happy about it and was pacing inside our fence trying to figure out how to get out and get to that dog! I explained to my neighbor VERY clearly (for about the 100th time) that Juno is a GUARD dog and is NOT interested in playing with her dog, that she is guarding our animals and see's her dog as a threat and that NO I do not think letting the two 'play' would be a good idea! I've tried to very gently, but bluntly, explain i do NOT want their dog on my property anymore and will not be responsible if at some point the future Juno takes action on their dog breaching the property line.

so, overall, GREAT update! we are so please with Juno's progress and so happy to see her in her element! I'm included a couple pictures I snapped quickly while she was starting evening patrols.

 

[Bear Foot Farm]

Glad to hear she's working out so well

Maremmas are amazing dogs if you handle them right and let their instincts take over

And she's pretty too