HELP w Turning shipped eggs w detached cells

[Pippin27]

Guys-
I don’t know what I’m doing With manually rotating these shipped eggs. All had saddle air cells or detached air cells. I’ve been tilting them in their egg carton 90 degrees in AM side to side and 90 degrees in PM bank to front...6 times. I count 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6 so each side is tilted 3 times.
Then I twist each egg within the egg carton after tilting.
Is twisting necessary or even bad for development?
Last week all were developing when candled.
Thanks for your help!
Avery

 

[BantyChooks]

Do you twist them in the same direction each time? I have done a few data collections on that turning technique with shipped eggs, and the ending consensus was that it improves development of the chorio-allantoic membrane, but has a small negative impact on air cell stability. I don't think it has any function, however, when you're tilting them in different directions already. It's not adding any extra range to where gravity applies settling pressure.

With shipped eggs, it's almost always a tradeoff between frequency and range of turning and air cell stability, in my experience. I often adjust my turning technique by the batch.

 

[Pippin27]

Do you twist them in the same direction each time? I have done a few data collections on that turning technique with shipped eggs, and the ending consensus was that it improves development of the chorio-allantoic membrane, but has a small negative impact on air cell stability. I don't think it has any function, however, when you're tilting them in different directions already. It's not adding any extra range to where gravity applies settling pressure.

With shipped eggs, it's almost always a tradeoff between frequency and range of turning and air cell stability, in my experience. I often adjust my turning technique by the batch.

Ok got it- I will get rid of twisting.
I will candle tonight and post pictures. If you are able, can you give me soMe feedback on what im
Seeing/how development is going. These are special true blue whiting eggs and I want them to hatch .

 

[BantyChooks]

Ok got it- I will get rid of twisting.
I will candle tonight and post pictures. If you are able, can you give me soMe feedback on what im
Seeing/how development is going. These are special true blue whiting eggs and I want them to hatch .

Sure! Try and make sure they're as clear as possible; blurry pictures are difficult to gauge.

 

[Pippin27]

Sure! Try and make sure they're as clear as possible; blurry pictures are difficult to gauge.

I got busy w work and forgot. I will post by wknd. thanks for your help!

 

[Pippin27]

I got busy w work and forgot. I will post by wknd. thanks for your help!

I got busy w work and forgot. I will post by wknd. thanks for your help!

I could not sleep. Thinking (and worrying) about chickens and candling. As one does on this forum. :/ So I just candled all 11. Nine of 11 showed movement. I candled top and bottom for all I believe and it seems some showed NO air cell- is that possible?

I’ve left them all FAT END UP. Is this correct? Even if I couldn’t see air cell in these eggs?

I was surprised there was movement in a few of the eggs that show less defined veins and more blood bits/chunks and like diluted blood spreading?

A few showed obvious saddle shape in air cell.

These are due to hatch on May 12. Do I candle again ? When do I stop rocking twice daily? Why did I order shipped eggs? Never again>too stressful.
Note: pics below are of 11 eggs from all different angles. Pics go in order of how I took the shots so the same egg Is seen multiple times in a row from diff angles and top and bottom.

THANK YOU FOR YOUR HELP.
Avery

 

[BantyChooks]

First off, those air cells look quite small for eggs four days off from hatch. At this point it may be too late to do anything about it, but if I were in your shoes, I would lower the humidity somewhat (what are you holding it at now?) and do so until I saw drawdown in the eggs, since yours still don't look close to hatch.

Second, which of them have no air cells? I don't think I've ever seen an egg with no air cell at all, though I've seen some with the air cell on the side. Are you sure it isn't just malformed? Can you point out which pictures indicate an egg you can't find an air cell on? Hard to tell without context.

Stop turning the eggs on day 18, which would be tomorrow, I think. You can lay the eggs on their side or keep them upright, but I prefer to put them on their sides to reduce the chances of them drowning if they pip into fluid in the air cell. You can candle them after that, but I don't like to twist them around when doing so as it risks disorienting the chick and causing malpositions. That said, I've had hatches were I forgot to lock down entirely and still had chicks.

I was surprised there was movement in a few of the eggs that show less defined veins and more blood bits/chunks and like diluted blood spreading?

Clotty vein formations in the CAM isn't all that uncommon. I forget what causes it, but it's not something that causes total fatalities, IMO. Might be turning related, not sure.

 

[Pippin27]

First off, those air cells look quite small for eggs four days off from hatch. At this point it may be too late to do anything about it, but if I were in your shoes, I would lower the humidity somewhat (what are you holding it at now?) and do so until I saw drawdown in the eggs, since yours still don't look close to hatch.
View attachment 2128406
Second, which of them have no air cells? I don't think I've ever seen an egg with no air cell at all, though I've seen some with the air cell on the side. Are you sure it isn't just malformed? Can you point out which pictures indicate an egg you can't find an air cell on? Hard to tell without context.

Stop turning the eggs on day 18, which would be tomorrow, I think. You can lay the eggs on their side or keep them upright, but I prefer to put them on their sides to reduce the chances of them drowning if they pip into fluid in the air cell. You can candle them after that, but I don't like to twist them around when doing so as it risks disorienting the chick and causing malpositions. That said, I've had hatches were I forgot to lock down entirely and still had chicks.


Clotty vein formations in the CAM isn't all that uncommon. I forget what causes it, but it's not something that causes total fatalities, IMO. Might be turning related, not sure.

Thank you - this was very helpful. I will try to candle tops tgt or Tom night while they remain in incubator.

I’m a little confused on how to prepare for lockdown:
Position:
1. I’ve read to hatch shipped eggs in carton fat side up
2. You’re saying I could hatch lying down but couldn’t they drown that wAy too? Someone recommended tilting egg propped up on paper towel lying down w biggest opening in air cell facing up w paper towels underneath
Can you explain to me in more detail the reasons for both ways of hAtching - I’m having trouble picturing how the bird is oriented in each situation. I’m feeling slow to catch on and want to make sure I
Understand fully.

Humidity
1. I’ve lowered humidity to 30 percent today. Do I leave like that until very end and all are hatched out?

Turning
1. I’ve read to stop turning early w hatched eggs. Given that some have blood bits but are still moving, should I stop turning? I have not turned them today bc I handled them a lot at 3am today for candling.
So the question is, do I rock them back and forth tgt?

Candling
1. I will candle tgt or Tom night leaving eggs Inside brooder Just so I can visualize air cell on top.

Helping w hatch
1. Can I crack open egg if no pip on day 21? How will I know if they need help from the inside if no pip- are their signs?


Thank you
Avery

 

[BantyChooks]

I’m a little confused on how to prepare for lockdown:
Position:
1. I’ve read to hatch shipped eggs in carton fat side up
2. You’re saying I could hatch lying down but couldn’t they drown that wAy too? Someone recommended tilting egg propped up on paper towel lying down w biggest opening in air cell facing up w paper towels underneath
Can you explain to me in more detail the reasons for both ways of hAtching - I’m having trouble picturing how the bird is oriented in each situation. I’m feeling slow to catch on and want to make sure I
Understand fully.

I think that refers to shipped eggs with severe air cell damage leading to them being misshapen. Where did you read this? It's been a long time since I did research on what other people recommend. They could have a good reason behind it, I dunno.
The point of laying them down is so that any liquid in the air cell runs away from the pip instead of towards it. This won't apply to severely saddled eggs as much. Eggs on their sides are supposed to be oriented with the lowest dip in their air cell (as seen from a vertical position) upwards. This may not always be apparent until drawdown, which is when the air cell tilts strongly to one side as the bird moves to make an internal pip. I've hatched both ways, and didn't notice an effect on hatch rates... so you can do either, honestly, though I'm not sure how the sub-optimal air cell sizes seen in your pics will impact things. Personally, I lay all my eggs down to hatch, even the shipped eggs, of which I hatch quite a few yearly. That's a subjective thing, though.

For future reference:

Humidity
1. I’ve lowered humidity to 30 percent today. Do I leave like that until very end and all are hatched out?

No, I wouldn't. What day are they on now? I raise the humidity to about 55% as soon as I see drawdown or an internal pip. Low humidity for hatch risks slow hatchers becoming stuck. I run humidity at about 30% for the first 18 days, though that's quite a subjective level and you should use whatever gives your eggs the best air cell development.

Turning
1. I’ve read to stop turning early w hatched eggs. Given that some have blood bits but are still moving, should I stop turning? I have not turned them today bc I handled them a lot at 3am today for candling.
So the question is, do I rock them back and forth tgt?

You can if you want to, turning isn't that necessary past day 13--14, if my memory holds. The blood clots don't have a bearing on whether to turn them, in my experience. You should stop turning by day 18 so the chicks can orient themselves properly.

Helping w hatch
1. Can I crack open egg if no pip on day 21? How will I know if they need help from the inside if no pip- are their signs?

https://www.backyardchickens.com/articles/guide-to-assisted-hatching-for-all-poultry.72886/
Here's a good link on that. I err on the side of caution and only assist if I'm sure the bird needs it. Personally, I won't assist any egg that hasn't internally pipped. It's just not worth it, to me.

 

[Pippin27]

I think that refers to shipped eggs with severe air cell damage leading to them being misshapen. Where did you read this? It's been a long time since I did research on what other people recommend. They could have a good reason behind it, I dunno.
The point of laying them down is so that any liquid in the air cell runs away from the pip instead of towards it. This won't apply to severely saddled eggs as much. Eggs on their sides are supposed to be oriented with the lowest dip in their air cell (as seen from a vertical position) upwards. This may not always be apparent until drawdown, which is when the air cell tilts strongly to one side as the bird moves to make an internal pip. I've hatched both ways, and didn't notice an effect on hatch rates... so you can do either, honestly, though I'm not sure how the sub-optimal air cell sizes seen in your pics will impact things. Personally, I lay all my eggs down to hatch, even the shipped eggs, of which I hatch quite a few yearly. That's a subjective thing, though.

For future reference:
View attachment 2129964


No, I wouldn't. What day are they on now? I raise the humidity to about 55% as soon as I see drawdown or an internal pip. Low humidity for hatch risks slow hatchers becoming stuck. I run humidity at about 30% for the first 18 days, though that's quite a subjective level and you should use whatever gives your eggs the best air cell development.


You can if you want to, turning isn't that necessary past day 13--14, if my memory holds. The blood clots don't have a bearing on whether to turn them, in my experience. You should stop turning by day 18 so the chicks can orient themselves properly.


https://www.backyardchickens.com/articles/guide-to-assisted-hatching-for-all-poultry.72886/
Here's a good link on that. I err on the side of caution and only assist if I'm sure the bird needs it. Personally, I won't assist any egg that hasn't internally pipped. It's just not worth it, to me.

Hi Bantychooks!
Btw-whats your name?

I am SO grateful for your help with this hatch--thank you! 5/6 hatched healthy yesterday--all different colors/patterns--precious...pics attached. --4 more from same batch due to hatch tomorrow.
I do have one egg i am not sure what to do--i posted a separate post but got no replies..i assisted and now its sitting in incubator with hole in it--here is the link to the posting- https://www.backyardchickens.com/th...ing-malposition-w-yolk-not-sucked-in.1373621/
I was up until 1am trying to problem solve--what are your thoughts on my next steps? I don't even know if its fully developed with all the extra space in air cell and narrow part of egg (See candling pics from this posting and you will see what im talking about)--the strange thing is that I HEARD KNOCKING INSIDE EGG...which is why i started to assist....

Thank you!
AVery

PPS- How do I add you to an existing post. I couldn't figure out how to "add member" to a conversation already started.