Helping a hen with reproductive issues with people calcium, but how much to give?

[Possum-Pie]

Thank you azygous for your added info. Yes, as long as hens get out of the coop, the daylight hours are long enough, they can produce Vitamin D.

Calcium indeed is "Generally safe" as long as not given in too high amounts/for too long. It can do kidney damage in humans and poultry. Anything in too high dosages can be damaging.

Anyone who believes "alternative medicine" or supplements are safe and regulated needs only Google "Argyria" This silver toxicity from Colloidal silver is irreversible and causes permanent blue skin in people for the rest of their lives. Just because it's sold over the counter doesn't make it safe...

 

[azygous]

A lot of people here believe in Colloidal silver. I started out trying to tell them it has no proven benefits, and could be dangerous for their chickens since it's not been studied and approved. It's hard to change minds that are made up. Not long ago, a BYC friend accidentally caused her beloved pet rooster to die because she took someone's suggestion to try some obscure herbal supplement that happened to be highly toxic for chickens. Some supplements carry real danger when you trust in them, especially for chickens that are poisoned by substances that are perfectly safe for humans.

 

[Possum-Pie]

Yes, I certainly don't want to cause any arguments...Whatever a person gives their chickens, pets, kids, or themselves is ultimately up to them. My suggestion is for everyone to do the research, look at proven benefits, proven risks, reliability of the company, etc., and make their own minds up based on evidence. I'm sad to say that I've seen permanent injury and even death to my human patients based on misguided information.
I personally don't trust politicians, Twitter, or Facebook to give me medical advice Heck, I don't even trust myself much of the time which is why I still have all of my medical textbooks and read the latest evidenced-based research on things If one goes to "Google Scholar" and types in their questions, the answers are backed up by actual research, studies, and scientific evidence.

 

[Sally PB]

Feathers absorb vitamin D from sunlight just as our skin does.

Wow, I did not know that! Interesting.

If one goes to "Google Scholar" and types in their questions, the answers are backed up by actual research, studies, and scientific evidence.

Thank you. I will use that a lot, I bet.

 

[Just2chickens]

I looked it up, here in Germany when the bottle says 400 mg it has 400 mg of calcium carbonate in it
I don't have the calcium citrate , couldn't find it at the time... But I didn't realise that it was in antacid tablets, so maybe I can find it in the section for stomach-tablets...
Thank you for the info on vit.D

 

[azygous]

Thanks for that info. I suspected this misleading labeling is an American thing.

It's calcium carbonate that is usually in antacids. It reacts with acid to neutralize it. Calcium citrate is not the same substance, being derived from the production of citric acid as a by-product. Even though both contain calcium that can be utilized by the body, they come from different sources entirely.

 

[Just2chickens]

Thanks for that info. I suspected this misleading labeling is an American thing.

It's calcium carbonate that is usually in antacids. It reacts with acid to neutralize it. Calcium citrate is not the same substance, being derived from the production of citric acid as a by-product. Even though both contain calcium that can be utilized by the body, they come from different sources entirely.

Maybe one good thing about Germany ... Everything is regulated to death.... Problem is that you can' t get antibiotics or even dewormers without a vet, and thats a problem because there aren't enough vets
That's interesting about the different sources...

 

[Possum-Pie]

Don't use calcium citrate for routine supplementation. It's only roughly 24% available calcium It has a poor bioavailability of digestible calcium compared to carbonate. Crushed oyster shells, egg shells, or mined calcium carbonate such as that used in human supplements contains much more usable calcium.
The other variable to consider which most people fail to account for is the relative size of the calcium particles. Very fine calcium powder (crushed human calcium supplements, "oyster shell flour" or powdered egg shells) is rapidly absorbed but course calcium such as roughly crushed oyster shell travels further into the intestines for longer absorption times.

Calcium administered in mixed form with 70% as coarse calcium carbonate (2–4 mm) and 30% as a powder can help calcium be available along the GI tract for a longer time according to a study by Carrillo L, Bernad MJ, Monroy-Barreto M, Coello CL, Sumano H, Gutiérrez L. .in the journal Frontiers in Veterinary Science 2020.

 

[azygous]

Don't use calcium citrate. It's only roughly 24% available calcium It has a poor bioavailability of digestible calcium compared to carbonate. Crushed oyster shells, egg shells, or mined calcium carbonate such as that used in human supplements contains much more usable calcium.
The other variable to consider which most people fail to account for is the relative size of the calcium particles. Very fine calcium powder (crushed human calcium supplements, "oyster shell flour" or powdered egg shells) is rapidly absorbed but course calcium such as roughly crushed oyster shell travels further into the intestines for longer absorption times.

Calcium administered in mixed form with 70% as coarse calcium carbonate (2–4 mm) and 30% as a powder can help calcium be available along the GI tract for a longer time according to a study by Carrillo L, Bernad MJ, Monroy-Barreto M, Coello CL, Sumano H, Gutiérrez L. .in the journal Frontiers in Veterinary Science 2020.

This is correct and helpful information. We all agree that calcium carbonate is the ideal form of calcium for daily intake to supplement feed. Oyster shell is the form of calcium carbonate we all recommend here, and we do urge folks to discard their old powdery stuff for fresh because larger particles allow optimum absorption.

But the situation for which we are using calcium citrate is a medical emergency or symptoms that can quickly become a medical emergency. In these applications, we use calcium citrate because it simply works fastest, and fast is what is required in some emergency situations in order to save a hen's life.

This is why the proper dosage is important to be able to know as we have experimented and found the minimum dosage that works. The purpose of this thread is to figure out how to convey this information to people with a hen in crisis who may need to go out and buy a bottle of these tablets and the label may be extremely confusing about how much calcium is in one of these tablets.

 

[Possum-Pie]

Thank you for clarifying that the thread is about "emergency" use of calcium use and not "routine" use. I fear that the huge "gray area" between treating one's own animals for serious illness/disease and seeking vet help can be confusing. If one has evidenced-based information and verified dose requirements, it becomes safer to do. Citrate is indeed a faster form of calcium, but Calcium Lactate (Calphosan) is generally the accepted form used in chickens in an emergency. It is given IM (intramuscularly).

As everyone reading this thread now clearly sees, treating one's own chickens is VERY confusing. I clarified my post above to say don't use citrate for "routine supplements" to make it clearer.
It's VERY helpful if folks recommend something to treat chicken disease or illness to please cite the source where it was found. As I mentioned above, I've seen medical advice on Facebook that was inaccurate and harmful, yet there were tons of response posts saying "Thanks, I'll try that!" I think from now on I'll stay out of the medical discussions here on BYC, Discussions about why my hen won't leave the coop or what this bug is crawling on her leg are less prone to errors that could cause real damage. As Azygous stated in the very first post, Be careful reading the labels, It can be easy to give too much or too little if you don't know exactly how much is in each caplet/tablet.