Heritage Large Fowl - Phase II

[ki4got]

Quote: not sure if you're for or against what I said... but IMO a heritage breed should be one that can grow, sustain itself and reproduce quite well on whatever feed is available, in addition to being willing and capable of finding their own if nothing else is forthcoming. not those requiring high protein, massive quantities, etc. I want a good table carcass from a bird of any age (not just young). the dorking fits that bill for me. IMO the older roos are more filling, almost as tender and every bit as tasty as the younger ones, they just have more meat on their bones.

another benefit, unlike faster growing breeds, the dorking builds it's frame first, so the bones are mature by the time the body starts getting heavy, which means the bone structure can be lighter than similar sized birds... compared to a similarly sized 'dotte, the dorking has more meat to bone ratio in my experience, than the 'dotte does.

 

[Fred's Hens]

Being in my second half of a century, I fully understand not being concerned with pleasing anyone else but myself (and family,) I'm right there with you, Fred! I am only wondering aloud. I know that I would rather have a bird ready at that point, but also one who doesn't stand at the trough for the whole 8 months to get there.

Gotcha.

Our Rocks charge out of the barn pen at the first grey light of pre-dawn. Don't have lazy bone in their bodies. Great foragers.
However, let's just say not all of the breeds we've had were quite as industrious.

 

[capayvalleychick]

Just remembered what day this is...

Happy Birthday Walt!!!

 

[Arielle]

Quote: Karen, this is exactly why some of the old breeds seem to be more cost effective-- the slow growth matched the natural production of the local land. Commercially produced grains/pellets go hand in hand with fast gaining birds.

Being so far north, I am already seeing a strong decrease in the foraging and the decrease in what the land can provide as well as ab increased use of the feed in the feed bunker. This points out to a need for a fast growing bird for me, I think. If you jhave any suggestions to get around this, I"m all ears. Economical winter feed seems to be the biggest issue.

 

[Pozees]

Kim, thank you for the reminder - Happy Birthday Walt!

 

[Arielle]

Happy Birthday Walt!!

 

[ki4got]

Quote: Karen, this is exactly why some of the old breeds seem to be more cost effective-- the slow growth matched the natural production of the local land. Commercially produced grains/pellets go hand in hand with fast gaining birds.

Being so far north, I am already seeing a strong decrease in the foraging and the decrease in what the land can provide as well as ab increased use of the feed in the feed bunker. This points out to a need for a fast growing bird for me, I think. If you jhave any suggestions to get around this, I"m all ears. Economical winter feed seems to be the biggest issue.
oh they're still economical in the winter, by not eating as much as other breeds might... especially once they're mature. my sg pen has 8 mature birds in it. I'm putting in roughly 4-6 cups of food a day. some days more some less, I just keep adding to the feeder and skipping a day here and there to let it get cleaned out, when they have about enough for that day.

if you're breeding, then the mature birds are maintaining their weight, not putting it on. it's their offspring you need to consider hatching in time to go outside asap.

with fermented feed, I think my consumption is going to decrease, if anything. tho i'm nowhere near ready to feed everyone with it. i'm starting with enough for my youngest and one newest girl (needs weight gain - detailed on another thread).

 

[Yellow House Farm]

As someone who has spent most their poultry lifetime breeding Asiatic birds (Langshans, Cochins, Brahmas) I know slow maturing breeds very well. You can select for both growth and size. I don't understand why someone would allow slow maturing birds to propagate in their flock, it just means you have to feed culls for longer. If it's not 90% mature by 6 months? That's a huge issue. But to each their own, just know it is possible to do both, you just have to select for it.

Absolutely! There's a lot of learning that goes into this. All heritage breeds should be table ready at 6 months. That does not mean that they won't continue to grow over a period of time, mature, and put on a more "adult" build, but at 6 to 7 months a bird should be showing you what it's about. Selecting for size regardless of rate of growth will lead to a line of birds that never finishes. The trick is lining birds up and comparing apples to apples:



You line them up. You put like hatch dates side by side. You compare siblings of the same age. You record trends, but at six to seven months, one makes sweeping cuts. One is left with what I refer to as "finalists". They're not the winners per se, but they are the finalists. Everyone else goes to the pot. I then go over the finalists in mid-January, and see who is the strongest to then form breedings. The six-ish month cut is very important. If one allows birds to mature past that all higgledy-piggledy not knowing when they put their size on, one's strain will loose, or rather never gain, its uniformity and productive predictability.



Dorking to the right, Ancona to the left. Reliably good roasters are not had by waiting to see who's the largest at a random date, and a bird at a year old is no longer a roaster but stewing fowl--delicious--but not a roaster. A good line of roasters is had by assessing birds at the 24-25 week point and reserving those that are strongest in dimension and fleshing. They then need to be paired wisely. The next year the same assessment is made, and with a little luck and as the fruit of discipline and focus one should have roasters that tend to match the parent generation, and there should be some that excel it. These are then retained as breeders, and one's line has taken a step forward as a line that is good for roasting. This is the kind of size acquisition that one wants--a line that annually improves in roaster qualities when assessed at the 24 to 26 week mark. From this point, one can start selecting for speed of growth by then assessing a week or so earlier and seeing who makes the mark ahead of deadline. This process, though, cannot be rushed.

All of these things are possible to do IF one selects a breed that is appropriate to one's means of time, budget, and infrastructure and if does not take on more breeds or varieties than one is able to tend to with hatching and raising out certain minimums, maintaining strict quality control of the three pillars of chicken health: cleanliness, floor-space, and diet.

 

[Yellow House Farm]

Food for thought: discussing breeds qua breeds has limited value. Whatever breeds were or whatever they were meant to be is part of their history, but it's certainly not necessarily part of their current reality. These histories are valuable in that they point to the niche that "belongs" to the breed. The history and intended purpose safeguard a breed's uniqueness and guards it from the black-hole of redundancy.

When one speaks of birds as they currently are, then it is by far more valuable to discuss strain. The truth of a strain is the sum of recent generations and the impending pairings that will shape it, i.e. the truth of the birds is in the hands of the person breeding them now. Three years later is three generations later, and three year is enough to run a group of birds into the ground or to begin to turn a line around and set it on the good path. Thus, "breed facts" are of very little value in the present. Depending on what the individual breeder is doing, any single group of birds might approximate or, conversely, in no way approach the standard and historical purpose of the breed.

 

[MagicChicken]

Quote:
Good point. I totally agree. I left a critical word out of my prior post. Bob would have said "Cull ONLY for vigor the first year." You can cull for type later. But the vigor has to come first.