Heritage Large Fowl - Phase II

[RedRidge]

 


exactly  and too someone posted earlier that hatchery chicks are vaccinated for cocci(nope not true) and the amprolium in feed is not an antibiotic it is as stated above an inhibitor. Here you better feed it or have bottles of Sulmet around to treat bloody poopy half dead chicks. I do and I have raised nice birds from it otherwise I'd have nothing here to show for my hard earned cash and efforts but a lot of dead rotten birds(buzzard food)

Jeff

Jeff

I have to do "double duty" here to keep cocci at bay.  Medicated feed in the brooder, then for 1 full week after they hit the ground, I give Corid in their water in addition to the medicated feed....otherwise, they ALWAYS get it.  Treating like this for the past 2 seasons and not one case.

I think the humidity here in the South causes more cocci than in other places

I will have to politely disagree with this statement. ..
I have had chickens for more years than I can count and Di not give anything as a preventative.
I worried about cocci this year with how wet it was but would never give it unless needed. I had Corid on hand. .. Have never used it. Have never once given any form of antibiotics or wormer to my chickens. Maybe I am just lucky. Feeding medicated feeds just does not make sense to me.

 

[Beekissed]

Wow! Very, very nice.

I saw the NH hen she was lovely. This duck is gorgeous. Traveling with 38+ birds 1,000 miles?! Amazing. Hat's off to you - Good job!

That duck is so beautiful that it doesn't even look real! What a beautiful sheen!

 

[catdaddyfro]

LONG AGO....most chicks were hatched by a broody hen. As a result they are exposed to cocci from day 1 and develop an immunity to it. I've never had a broody raised chick contract cocci....but have had MANY an incubator/brooder raised bunch come down with it

Not sure how long coccidiostats have been around.....it was developed for cattle, so it may have been around quite a while

Edited to say: I also think (opinion here) chickens today are more prone to confined areas than in years past. Keeping the birds in one area as opposed to free range also concentrates the cocci in small areas where the birds are more prone to getting it

I would venture to say that the exposure(s) is there from the beginning (as in entering the egg in the nesting area) and too from the direct contact with the broody too. IMO and it goes into the natural selection category then(the strong survive/the weak don't develop)
yes my broody raised biddies do better in every which-away they don't even need to be kept under lights at 90-95 degrees either I've had store-bought and incu. raised chicks die or nearly about die at nowhere near freezing temps. I have had broody hatched/reared chicks out eating scratch at 2 days old with Mommy in 26 degree weather. There is a difference for sure.

Jeff

 

[catdaddyfro]

I will have to politely disagree with this statement. ..
I have had chickens for more years than I can count and Di not give anything as a preventative.
I worried about cocci this year with how wet it was but would never give it unless needed. I had Corid on hand. .. Have never used it. Have never once given any form of antibiotics or wormer to my chickens. Maybe I am just lucky. Feeding medicated feeds just does not make sense to me.

Send some of yours here and I will let them be and we will see then is all I can say.

there's stuff that grows in this humid/swamp that don't/can't grow anywhere else on God's green Earth; everywhere is not the same place. You sure won't get by without de-worming a couple of times of year. Chicken genetics have nothing to with what they may come in contact with out in the elements.

The .% of amprolium(coccidiostat) in the feeds is so minimal there could not be such an effect that could be an for-ever-more detriment to the bird I'm sure. Now giving them the meds(in the strong doses) after they have the illnesses and in an already rundown state from being sick could/would surely be harmful to their systems in certain
ways. J/S

The low percent is not aimed at fixing sick birds it is used to let them get a little exposure and therefore let the system build immunity slowly. It is not a cure-all the meds in the bottle is and this will linger for sometime in the systems, yes.



Jeff

 

[Yellow House Farm]

The best American New Hampshire hen was mine and the East Indie and mallard that were best bantam ducks along with 38 other birds that did not get to champion row.
Here is the duck, don't have pics of the New Hamp yet



Walt

Congrats, Walt!!! I'm glad for you. I'd very much to see photos of your East Indies and of your Mallards. Got any hanging around?

I think the humidity here in the South causes more cocci than in other places

Strong possibility. Wet weather is a breeding ground for cocci.

What did poultry fanciers do for coccidia before they had amprollium and Sulmet? That's what I would do if developing heritage stock...use a natural way to decrease the overgrowth of coccidia in the coop and soil environment and also in the intestines. There has to be a way to do that or we wouldn't have a chicken one on this Earth.

Chicks contract cocci from eating droppings. Mother hens used to move around much more thus limiting the exposure to infected droppings. Chicks in hot, humid brooders with nothing to do but peck poop are at a high risk to cocci. Control your brooder conditions with extreme care. Avoid humidity and poop build up. THis is one of the primary reason given for raising chicks on wire--much less exposure to droppings. Of course this opens up other cans of worms.


SO, purposively limiting comment on a public forum, but state departments are doing their job. If a trained veterinarian, and the state vet at that, is hinting away from actually doing MG testing, it's for a reason.

One does not bring chickens to the vet. If folks are going to raise birds, they must control the three pillars of health: diet, cleanliness, and floor space. Air quality is of supreme importance and must never be ignored. Then, there's no time for tears or what not, if you go outside and a bird is sick, you reach down and cull the bird. Bam, bird gone, that's it. Rarely is there cause for medicating birds--barring the chicks' coccidiostat. "A stitch in time saves nine", and culling the bird is usually the right call. Burying it immediately is usually the next one.

If you've noticed, the (gently put) more experienced poultry folk aren't jumping up and down on the disease question. There are reasons for all things. The absolutely most important thing you can do is have a core of respected and locally recognized core of mentors closely affiliated with the APA/ABA.

As for stock, I would only recommend two venues: hatcheries (but why?) or from recognized and generally approved sources from the APA/ABA community. It doesn't matter is someone tells you he's a breeder; it matter if others tell you he's a breeder. If the poultry leaders of your local club and or the APA judges you encounter don't know who someone is, question them. If so and so is a "breeder" but doesn't show locally, question their "breeder-hood". For example, if you're in New England and I don't know you, that's saying something. If I don't know you and Don, Brian, Jackie, etc...don't know you, that's saying a whole heck of a lot. Very few are the long time breeders who don't show or who didn't show at one time. Buying local chicks is very often a very bad idea. If you're going to local chicks, your first stop needs to be the local APA/ABA show to get the names of reputable breeders.

Cheers,

Joseph

 

[Arielle]

THank you JOseph and other long time experience keepers for helping us newcomers understand MG, and other chicken diseases and how to handle it. Most of us do not have anyone like a mentor to learn the basics of poultry keeping. We are on our own.

 

[ki4got]

What did poultry fanciers do for coccidia before they had amprollium and Sulmet? That's what I would do if developing heritage stock...use a natural way to decrease the overgrowth of coccidia in the coop and soil environment and also in the intestines. There has to be a way to do that or we wouldn't have a chicken one on this Earth.

I do what the broody hen does. I put them on dirt ASAP.

any bird that's ever been on real dirt has been exposed to coccidia, since it lives in the soil nearly everywhere. as such, every adult bird that's been on the ground more than a month has immunity to it, whether they ever showed signs of having it or otherwise.

that immunity is passed IN THE EGG to the offspring. when they hatch, they have a limited immunity to anything the mother had immunity to. over the next 2-4 weeks of life, this 'hatched' immunity fades, as the chick starts building it's own immune system to whatever it's exposed to. by the time the chick is a month old, the mother's immunity has worn off and he's running on his own now. the mother's immunity will only last so long, and if they're not exposed to the disease-causing organism in the first 2-4 weeks, they will not retain any of that immunity.

so any chicks that are raised off the ground without any contact with adult birds, will have no exposure to anything at all. period. at this point is when most people put their chicks on the ground for the first time. and of course, many (not all but many) will become sick because they have no resistance to anything, and have been exposed to a little bit of everything all at once.

with broodies, these chicks are exposed to everything from day 1. and provided it's mother had also been exposed to the same or similar organisms, the chicks will usually have ample immunity from day 1. That's not always the case, such as with shipped eggs or hatchery birds who's parents may have never put foot on real dirt in their lives or been exposed to anything ever before. but if they were vaccinated, even that limited immunity should pass along to the chick somewhat. so if he's exposed within the first few weeks, then he'll likely have lifetime immunity.

for my own chicks raised indoors in the brooder, I do a couple things. first, I have some 8" square foil pans with just plain dirt from outside in them, and I sprout plain old 'orchard grass' hay mix in them, with 1/2" hardware cloth across the top to keep the chicks from digging up the grass by the roots... I rotate one of these into the pen at least every other day to provide some natural 'dirt' and greens for the chicks (the ones that are taken out are watered and allowed to grow again for a week or more. more seed is added if necessary, but usually once it gets a good root ball going it'll recover quite well.

the other thing I do is mix in a handful or two of shavings from the nest boxes of my free ranging birds in with the new babies every time I clean their box.

the only time I've had a problem with coccidia is with chicks that I've purchased that were already 3-4 weeks old, and most likely kept in 'sterile' brooders...

I will NOT feed medicated feed to the chicks, as it has only minimal amounts of amprollium in it. not enough to actually do anything to coccidia, but still enough to prevent thiamine absorption by the chick in small amounts. and even then, IMO all it's doing is encouraging 'stronger' bugs to propagate... if they can survive minimal thiamine deprivation, then they'll be more likely to take off once the medication is stopped.

I do keep corid on hand for those few chicks i had no control over early on. just as i do keep penicillin and tetracycline on hand for any new birds coming in that may have compromised immunity (because of nutritional or management issues - or lack thereof...) but prefer not to use it if i don't have to...

 

[fowlman01]

LONG AGO....most chicks were hatched by a broody hen. As a result they are exposed to cocci from day 1 and develop an immunity to it. I've never had a broody raised chick contract cocci....but have had MANY an incubator/brooder raised bunch come down with it

Not sure how long coccidiostats have been around.....it was developed for cattle, so it may have been around quite a while

Edited to say: I also think (opinion here) chickens today are more prone to confined areas than in years past. Keeping the birds in one area as opposed to free range also concentrates the cocci in small areas where the birds are more prone to getting it

The broody chicks do fine here, but the ones I hatch will die if I don't feed medicated chick starter. If you want to do it the old way you have to know how much cocci exposure you can get away with to come short of killing the chicks,. They need exposure as they get when raised on the ground by a broody. They also used to take feed and then water away to clean out the digestive tract, but that could be dangerous too.

w.

 

[Fred's Hens]

I've got a discussion starter, if you all don't mind.

I sure like to discuss "pre-potency". The whole enchilada. Any thoughts?

 

[ki4got]

Quote: Funny you mention this--- I had not put2 and 2 together. Lost a bunch in 2012 in a brooder, but a hen raised 12 outside and all grew up healthy. Hmmmmm. Need broodies.

THis begs the question, how to have early hatches when the broodies don't gt into mother mode until late spring?
see my response i just posted... i use very few broodies, but just do something very similar.