Heritage Large Fowl - Phase II

[fowlman01]

Quite true. I'm a genetics freak, and love my HRIR, so improving a breed with the genetics I love has been a fun project. And as someone pointed out earlier, we should all be having fun. ;-)

In RIR's, unless they are hatchery birds, the genetics are reasonably easy to figure out and generally consistent. Other breeds this is not always the case, so if you use genetics without knowing exactly what's in your birds IMO it is worse than useless. It is science alright, but not an exact science and this is why geneticists rarely agree on everything. I believe most of the disagreement is because they didn't know what was really in the birds when they did their research. If you have a breed that was made in several different ways in different geographic locations it is unlikely that genetics will get you a good bird.

Walt

 

[Lacy Blues]

Andalusian?

Oh, heavens no! Sorry about that. I "breed" Andalusians, but I have barnyard type mixes for more meat on a single carcass. This bird is a Wyandotte/Delaware cross. Nice, big, calm birds, except when catching. Heavy things too and very hard to hold wings with feet while dispatching as I have pretty small hands and apparently they have short wings, per a statement Walt made some time ago. Why is it that dual purpose breeds have short wings? Very strong birds too, or maybe its because I can't hold their wings still and have to try to hold them down while flapping so I don't get blood all over me. I don't have a killing cone yet.

Brine, brine, brine.

Cannot recommend brining enough if you are really concerned about a bird being tough and dry. Brining also gives you the opportunity to infuse some seasoning into it if you want. Just make sure you rinse it off with clean water, pat it dry, and let it sit just a little before you roast it - won't have a salty flavor that way and lets the skin dry so you can get a crispier skin easier.

Could you PM a brining recipe to me please? I've thought about doing that but I can't have a lot of salt and I don't know how salty this method makes the birds.

I saw a suggestion somewhere last night about injecting a vinegar mixture under the skin to accomplish the same purpose but it was an old thread and they didn't give any specifics. Anybody know anything about that method?

 

[bnjrob]

Could you PM a brining recipe to me please? I've thought about doing that but I can't have a lot of salt and I don't know how salty this method makes the birds.

Sorry, I don't use a recipe to brine with. I just throw salt, sugar, herbs, spices, and different flavored juices into water, boil, cool, cover the bird. But there are many good recipes online. There is supposed to be a science to brining with the combo of sugar and salt in water to help with the tenderizing process. And fruit juices help as well.

 

[capayvalleychick]

... Single mating. Not a practical option for everyone, but you can track more specifically. Record keeping becomes more about individuals than it does pens. It also adds emphasis to the female side of the mating. In a pen of females, an individual female has less influence. When a superior hen is discovered, it allow to put more emphasis on that female.
... I do believe however, that the female side of the equation is devalued when she is one of many. I want to trim my flock down to superior performing hens as much as I do superior performing males. I need to see what a hen has to offer. Not the results getting lost in the shuffle or based on my impressions, which I do not trust.

So when it comes to record keeping, I want it all based on individuals. The offspring and the parents.

I also want values considered for individual characteristics. Something that can add a better sense of the overall value of a bird. Certainly on any given year or in an individual family certain traits would be more valuable than another. I want to be flexible enough to shift, but I want to establish priorities. What I am trying to do is organize the process.
I got this idea re emphasized from someone else, and I intend to follow it to some degree...

Pictures. I intend to take a lot of pictures. I want to identify tendencies. I want to see what I can cull for early. I want to hatch as many as I can, so I need to clean out as many as I can as soon as I can. I am guessing that after a couple years this will be a handy reference.
I want the pictures to be specific enough to include sections. Both type and color.
... I have an ideal in mind, and want to figure out how to get there.

So when we discuss records, these are some of the things that I am thinking of.

^^^ This ^^^ well said, and pretty much what I am doing, as of last year.

I'm still going over the data, but I saw some interesting results. Out of a dozen Silver Gray Dorking hens and 2 cocks, only 4 hens produced any pullets worth keeping. The 2 best producers of that subset also produced the only cockerels worth keeping, with the exception of one hen who only produced males and the best males at that.

Overall, I'm seeing better size and weight in the pullets. Most of the keepers are a pound heavier than the hens that produced them. Unfortunately, not the case with the cockerels, even though my largest hen produced the best type cockerels. I'm really disappointed in the males from last year, overall.

Before I was using the SOP, my flock developed tail angles that were way too high. So, I used a cock last year with a much lower tail. He has good length of back, and good type, but also one almost duck foot and a brush of white on his lobes. But I used him because he was my only option for lowering the tail angle. I hadn't been paying much attention to position of toes since type and size has been my focus. Now, I'm regretting that because almost all my youngsters have toes that point to center or have one duck foot. In addition, all the cockerels have a brush of white on the lobes. I only have 2 females with all red lobes. One of those I would cull if it weren't for her red lobes because her type is not as good as others.

So, I'm finding that I have some pullets with one trait that I need ie good feet or red lobes. I keep them because I hope that I can integrate that trait into the flock. I get a little frustrated because I feel like I have a lot of individual puzzle pieces but no completed puzzle. No one bird has all the traits that I want to meet Standard with none of the defects or dqs.

 

[MagicChicken]

Quote:
When processing one or two birds at a time I've discovered that hanging them by their feet from a tree limb works just as well as a killing cone. I try to hold their heads in position so they bleed out into a bucket, but you could also let go and step back if you need to. Using the hang-by-the-feet method places the bird in perfect position for dry-plucking, which isn't too difficult if you start as soon as the bird has expired.

Ignore this post if you process more than one or two birds at a time - that is a whole different ball game.

 

[hellbender]

When processing one or two birds at a time I've discovered that hanging them by their feet from a tree limb works just as well as a killing cone. I try to hold their heads in position so they bleed out into a bucket, but you could also let go and step back if you need to. Using the hang-by-the-feet method places the bird in perfect position for dry-plucking, which isn't too difficult if you start as soon as the bird has expired.

Ignore this post if you process more than one or two birds at a time - that is a whole different ball game.

For years, before we installed four poultry/rabbit abattoirs, we simply wrapped the birds' wings with inexpensive electrical tape, bound their legs and hung them over a taunt line...Still do it that way if it's cold out and don't want to mess with cleaning the 'killing fields'.

 

[Lacy Blues]

^^^ This ^^^ well said, and pretty much what I am doing, as of last year.

I'm still going over the data, but I saw some interesting results. Out of a dozen Silver Gray Dorking hens and 2 cocks, only 4 hens produced any pullets worth keeping. The 2 best producers of that subset also produced the only cockerels worth keeping, with the exception of one hen who only produced males and the best males at that.

Overall, I'm seeing better size and weight in the pullets. Most of the keepers are a pound heavier than the hens that produced them. Unfortunately, not the case with the cockerels, even though my largest hen produced the best type cockerels. I'm really disappointed in the males from last year, overall.

Before I was using the SOP, my flock developed tail angles that were way too high. So, I used a cock last year with a much lower tail. He has good length of back, and good type, but also one almost duck foot and a brush of white on his lobes. But I used him because he was my only option for lowering the tail angle. I hadn't been paying much attention to position of toes since type and size has been my focus. Now, I'm regretting that because almost all my youngsters have toes that point to center or have one duck foot. In addition, all the cockerels have a brush of white on the lobes. I only have 2 females with all red lobes. One of those I would cull if it weren't for her red lobes because her type is not as good as others.

So, I'm finding that I have some pullets with one trait that I need ie good feet or red lobes. I keep them because I hope that I can integrate that trait into the flock. I get a little frustrated because I feel like I have a lot of individual puzzle pieces but no completed puzzle. No one bird has all the traits that I want to meet Standard with none of the defects or dqs.

I'm in the same boat. Trying to bring all these puzzle pieces together into one bird is elusive. Gotta keep kicking the can down the road.

When processing one or two birds at a time I've discovered that hanging them by their feet from a tree limb works just as well as a killing cone. I try to hold their heads in position so they bleed out into a bucket, but you could also let go and step back if you need to. Using the hang-by-the-feet method places the bird in perfect position for dry-plucking, which isn't too difficult if you start as soon as the bird has expired.

Ignore this post if you process more than one or two birds at a time - that is a whole different ball game.

Trees? What are those?

Nope, one at a time for me as I'm the only one doing it. Dry plucking would probably be a lot easier than feathers sticking to your fingers. Drives me crazy but it's what I've known.

For years, before we installed four poultry/rabbit abattoirs, we simply wrapped the birds' wings with inexpensive electrical tape, bound their legs and hung them over a taunt line...Still do it that way if it's cold out and don't want to mess with cleaning the 'killing fields'.

That's a pretty good idea. Wonder if I could hang one from my clothes line cross post? I've tried slitting the jugular before but ended up torturing the poor bird with several cuts that were in the wrong place. Maybe I'll try again one of these days.

 

[RiddleMe]

 

  I don't have a killing cone yet.

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When processing one or two birds at a time I've discovered that hanging them by their feet from a tree limb works just as well as a killing cone.  I try to hold their heads in position so they bleed out into a bucket, but you could also let go and step back if you need to. Using the hang-by-the-feet method places the bird in perfect position for dry-plucking, which isn't too difficult if you start as soon as the bird has expired.

Ignore this post if you process more than one or two birds at a time - that is a whole different ball game.

I've used vet wrap to bind their wings, couple snug wraps around the body, worked well, cheap, and I was able to reuse it for a couple birds. I use a hatchet to dispatch so I like to keep my other hand away from the body (I just hold their feet)..

 

[Lacy Blues]

I've used vet wrap to bind their wings, couple snug wraps around the body, worked well, cheap, and I was able to reuse it for a couple birds. I use a hatchet to dispatch so I like to keep my other hand away from the body (I just hold their feet)..

A cleaver is what I use. Trying to hold the feet and the wings together is quite difficult with these short winged birds. I can do it with the Andalusians cuz their wings are nice and long. I chop, drop the cleaver and hang on.

Vet wrap is a good possibility too. Thanks.

 

[hellbender]

I'm in the same boat. Trying to bring all these puzzle pieces together into one bird is elusive. Gotta keep kicking the can down the road.


Trees? What are those?

Nope, one at a time for me as I'm the only one doing it. Dry plucking would probably be a lot easier than feathers sticking to your fingers. Drives me crazy but it's what I've known.


That's a pretty good idea. Wonder if I could hang one from my clothes line cross post? I've tried slitting the jugular before but ended up torturing the poor bird with several cuts that were in the wrong place. Maybe I'll try again one of these days.

At that point, our 'taunt line' was the clothes line! I don't let them 'flop' because I think it bruises the breast meat and I go to what some consider extraordinary measures to insure a quality bird...