Heritage Large Fowl - Phase II

[Vamvakas]

The old man in the crowd.

Nice roo! He German line?

 

[3riverschick]

I might be wrong, but I suspect that is where the problem would be.

You can use anything and get back to anything. It is the consequences that come along with it that gets you. There is a lot that the chicken calculator does not tell you.

Why not use the White Dorking or a Light Sussex?
Best,
Karen

 

[gjensen]

Why not use the White Dorking or a Light Sussex?
Best,
Karen

I would not use any other color unless I decided for myself, I could not get where I wanted to be otherwise. Then I would cross strains (even a three way cross) before I crossed varieties. I do not know if it is really needed or not. I would be talking to people more experienced than myself, and teasing out their thoughts on the matter.

I am not much of a color guy, so I do not know what the best approach is. I tend to think that a red male over cuckoo females. Then a silver male over the black offspring.
If the whites are dominant, who knows what is being covered. If the whites are recessive, you have the combs and whether or not they where splits along the way.
I am not so certain about using another breed. That would be a long term grading project and another animal altogether.

Like I said, I am not a color guy. I hesitate to say anything.

For someone that was qualified and committed, there is nothing illegal or immoral about creating their own "new" strain. If someone could see it through and was successful, it would not be anything less than a contribution. That is if the birds were any good, or at least as good as what is currently available.

 

[gjensen]

Nice roo! He German line?

He is, but I am getting wary of using the name. They are changing pretty fast, being crossed etc.

 

[3riverschick]

I would not use any other color unless I decided for myself, I could not get where I wanted to be otherwise.

I thought that's why the other poster was asking? Because they had no other way?
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Then I would cross strains (even a three way cross) before I crossed varieties.

There's an interesting Darwinian Law of Variation which says that when:
the 2 way cross (A/B) is completely unrelated. And the A/B bird in the 3 way cross
be a female and mated to the 3rd strain, a male which must be of the very highest quality.
The 3rd strain must also be completely unrelated to the 1st 2 strain. The outcome being ,
if if done this way, that the A/B/C get will resemble the 3rd strain male as if they were brothers.
This resemblance will not happen if the A/B bird is a male and the 3rd strain bird is a female. I saw this
happen in dogs, extremely interesting. I am only presuming here that since it is a Darwinian Law, it may also
apply to poultry.
Best,

Karen
I will add here that Darwin was discussing crossing breeds. However he discussed it also working for
crossing varieties in a breed, tho I am not sure he ever tried that. However, I found it to work when
I crossed three unrelated vintage, linebred strains of collies, each totally unrelated to each other for at
least 4 generations. I will say I believe that balancing virtues in the abstract was an added bonus in
predicting virtue within the litter, tho I have no evidence from Darwin to prove that. I cross matched
the three unrelated strains for Type, Temperament and Health., such that no virtues occupied the
same place twice.
Just as an example (but not regarding the strains I used) , it could look something like this:
1. Type, Health Temperament.
2. Health Temperament, Type.
3. Temperament, Type, Health
Yes, it took me 3 years to find the strains, vet them for health and cross match them in the
manner shown above. The litter results proved out all expectations. Out of 7 pups, one Ch. stud,
one premier brood matron, One service/assistance dog, one multi titled performance dog, 3 pets.
The only one remaining here was the brood matron. All the others excelled in their owner's hands.

 

[LindaB220]

Very good to know.

 

[pigsflyacres]

Karen thanks for posting that. Very good to know.

Going outside to a different breed is a no no with Dorkings. With SGs the problem is that they are all related. My understanding is that you have the Urch line, MM birds, Sandhill that are long time strains. Then you have the birds Craig keeps (also longtime strain) which Urch, MM and Sandhill are all related to. Not sure how long Horstman has had his strain going or where they came from. Mary Woetterstrom (sp?) I think also has SGs and I'm not sure where they came from. Sandhill maybe?

So some of the individuals that are having fertility/hatching problems have crossed strains. I think the problem is that the SGs in this country are just all too interrelated at this point. Just speculation. It really is sounding like there is a lethal gene cropping up. I'd be really interested in the findings on 'eggtopsy'. This is why I suggested outcrossing to another variety. I personally have no idea where I'd start with that project. However, when I talked with Craig Russell (who knows the birds well) he said you could use a Red Dorking and get back to SG. He didn't say if there was a better option. We were talking how to go to another variety to reinvigorate a Red. It might be that he suggested a Red Dorking because they just seem to have the best vigor at the moment. YHFs whites might not be a very good option because he used SGs to improve them. I think Dorking whites are recessive. Can't remember. But YHFs experiences are a good guide for anyone undertaking this problem.

So for those individuals who are having this problem, I'm not discounting what they have done. I'm just trying to think how I'd go about solving the problem. A mental puzzle if you will. I may one day find myself in the same box. And I think there are two problems. A fertility problem and a hatchability problem.

I do know that there is a move underway to try and import SGs as well as some of the other varieties. Using imported blood is in many ways going to be like outcrossing to a different breed. I suspect that breeders will see some really interesting stuff crop up that will be frustrating. I think the Darwinian law Karen referred to might really come into play there. There is also the fact that the imported blood will have no resistance to our diseases. So a real project I think that is going to need the efforts of some very dedicated breeders. It would be nice if one of them was a genetics geek with access to research facilities! If there is a lethal gene cropping up in SGs, it needs to be identified. Creeper or something else.

 

[3riverschick]

Really interesting! Thanks for sharing. Are there unrelated Dorkings in Canada?
It's easy to get birds or eggs from Canada into the US. esp. if you are going by
bridge or land crossing. No import permit required. Would it be easier to do a 2 step import?
First to Canada and then a generation later into the US?
Best,
Karen

 

[3riverschick]

Links to some Canadian Dorkings"

http://albertachickensetc.punbb-hosting.com/viewtopic.php?id=40074

http://www.poultryhelp.com/link-hatchery.html

http://albertachickensetc.punbb-hosting.com/viewtopic.php?id=6434

http://www.poultrytheme.poultryswapontario.net/showthread.php?tid=20831&pid=117974
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Copied from another website:
"On his 4th birthday Craig Russell’s grandpa Showers gave him 2 Muscovy ducklings. The following spring his grandpa Russell gave him a box of chicks and his Great Aunt Ruth gave him a Muscovy drake to go with the hens from his Grandpa Showers. Craig never looked back. He acquired more birds and was soon selling eggs. By the time he was 12 he was showing poultry at the Lycoming County Fair. In 1961 Craig saw Henry K. Miller’s Dorkings at the PA Farm Show. He bought his 1st Dorkings from Henry in 1967, the year he graduated from high school. While in the US Army in the 1970′s Craig visited breeders and poultry shows in Great Britain and Europe. Returning home in 1973 he began gathering Dorkings from the Midwest to east coast and Eastern Canada, along with guineas and turkeys. Since 1998 he has been president of The Society for the Preservation of Poultry Antiquities. His friends and mentors have included John Norris the noted poultry historian, the famous stringman Henry K. Miller, and expert breeders Bruce Lentz, Dale Rice, Doc Seibert, and Cyril Mengas “the Guinea Man”. At age 64 Craig still has Muscovies decendant from his original block and all 5 standard varieties Dorkings and 9 non-standard varieties of Dorkings among other breeds."

Ok so Craig is the Mr. Dorking of your breed. What does he think of importing from Canada?
Best,
Karen

 

[Lacy Blues]

I would think that if I was facing a dead end with the birds I had chosen to raise, that outcrossing to another breed would be perfectly acceptable. Yes it will cause some problems and yes it will take years to get to where you really wanted to be in the first place but with lethal genes cropping up and all the birds here being so very closely related, wouldn't it be an acceptable option?

Also, YHF has apparently done away with the lethal gene in his flock. I don't remember ever hearing him talk about low hatchability and/or survivability among his chicks... and he has some really nice birds.