Heritage Large Fowl - Phase II

[gjensen]

George, yes there are a lot of Dorking folk that are not on the net. That is one of the frustrating things. Craig is a perfect example. He's written lots of articles about the birds, he's willing to talk. But he's not on the net. Heck he doesn't have a cell phone. He really has done a good job researching them and preserving them. I do not know what the quality is of his birds. My guess is that they are a good place to start a breeding program. There are probably others who know the history of the breed in this country as well as he does, but they are harder to contact. He's pretty much made himself the spokesperson.

I think reds are in the best shape of the varieties simply because no one could agree on what version of red was to be in the standard. So they were late getting in. More genetic variation as lines were consolidated. But we can go to RC birds. They didn't get into the standard, but are historically correct. The problem seems to be that few work with them for very long. Finding a flock older than 10 years is hard.

I think if it was me and I really wanted vigorous SGs and was willing to hatch like crazy and cull hard, I'd find out how to use Red Dorkings as an outcross altho there may be a better variety to use. YHF did it with his whites using SGs. He got good results but he had to cull a lot of birds.

The other option is try to isolate the gene causing the issues. Both options are going to be time consuming.

Jennifer

I think you bring up some interesting points, and on any level it is a fascinating project. I am more interested in the challenge of an effort of this sort than I am buying good birds. It is not for everyone though.
If I did not already have a difficult project, I would be interested in giving them a go myself. A fascinating breed with a fascinating history.

You seam to have a good feel for them. I like the interest in the history etc.

My question with the silver grays is how it would work concerning brassiness and bleed through. I noticed that there was a cuckoo variety, and wondered if using them with the reds, if you could not get back to silver. Then use them with the Silver Greys. I have also wondered if using Joseph's whites is not an option. I have wondered about a few things, but do not know the colors enough to comment.

Hatching like crazy is the fun part. Culling hard comes with it. These kinds of projects are a numbers game. It cannot be done well just hatching a few here and there. It takes a pretty big effort to get out of a hole. Some flocks more than others. I am more commenting on my own project than another.

You are right. A time consuming big effort. It is a labor of love of sorts. There is no glory in it. It is hard to post pictures and say see my pretty birds that someone else put together. It should be an enjoyable process though, if you like the birds. It requires a little thinking out of the box to.

 

[gjensen]

The bolded part is the key to success in breeding, regardless of breed, line, anything. That's what separates a good breeder from a "reproducer". That's why some people have good lines and years of success, and others don't.

The ones I see with the most success are not afraid and are not bashful about it. They also have an ability to chart out where there problems are going to be ahead of time, and plan accordingly.

 

[Lacy Blues]

The ones I see with the most success are not afraid and are not bashful about it. They also have an ability to chart out where there problems are going to be ahead of time, and plan accordingly.

Oh how I wish I had a neighbor like this! It would be so nice to be able to spend some time in the company of a really good breeder who isn't having his attention being pulled 15 different ways.

 

[pigsflyacres]

I think you bring up some interesting points, and on any level it is a fascinating project. I am more interested in the challenge of an effort of this sort than I am buying good birds. It is not for everyone though.
If I did not already have a difficult project, I would be interested in giving them a go myself. A fascinating breed with a fascinating history.

You seam to have a good feel for them. I like the interest in the history etc.

My question with the silver grays is how it would work concerning brassiness and bleed through. I noticed that there was a cuckoo variety, and wondered if using them with the reds, if you could not get back to silver. Then use them with the Silver Greys. I have also wondered if using Joseph's whites is not an option. I have wondered about a few things, but do not know the colors enough to comment.

Hatching like crazy is the fun part. Culling hard comes with it. These kinds of projects are a numbers game. It cannot be done well just hatching a few here and there. It takes a pretty big effort to get out of a hole. Some flocks more than others. I am more commenting on my own project than another.

You are right. A time consuming big effort. It is a labor of love of sorts. There is no glory in it. It is hard to post pictures and say see my pretty birds that someone else put together. It should be an enjoyable process though, if you like the birds. It requires a little thinking out of the box to.

I just do not know enough about genetics to be able to answer these questions. At one time there were a number of different types of red Dorkings. The standard just calls for one. I think its possible that one of the other types and not the 'wild type' might be a better option, but I don't know. Craig likes to keep a lot of different varieties of Dorking. One of them might be better in this scenario. There is always the chicken calculator! The Red Dorking is supposed to be the wild type. I'm not sure how accurate that is because sometimes odd birds crop up. You'll notice I picked a relative 'easy' variety. I have a lot of learning to do, best if I don't have to learn on too many fronts at once!

Their history fascinates me. They're just a neat bird. When I didn't have them I found I actually missed having them around. They were easy to have around. Their only real management requirement is that they need to forage. I found lack of forage affected them negatively even when I tried to compensate in food and larger run space. I basically live in a swamp most of the year. When it starts to warm up, the carpenter ants come out. I don't want them around my house. The best pest control I have found is Dorking hens. Once I lost them, nothing else did as good. Those girls used to line up to be let out and then race each other to the best spot to eat big fat carpenter ants. They were cheaper than the pest control company I use now.

I had my Dorkings for a couple years when my mom was showing me old photos of her as a child growing up in Georgia. There were 5 toes on the hens around her feet. They had that Dorking look. My mom totally discounted the birds other than to say that the same flock had been in the family for generations. All gone when they up and moved. And that is what happened to good heritage flocks. Gone without a trace.

Jennifer

 

[gjensen]

I just do not know enough about genetics to be able to answer these questions. At one time there were a number of different types of red Dorkings. The standard just calls for one. I think its possible that one of the other types and not the 'wild type' might be a better option, but I don't know. Craig likes to keep a lot of different varieties of Dorking. One of them might be better in this scenario. There is always the chicken calculator! The Red Dorking is supposed to be the wild type. I'm not sure how accurate that is because sometimes odd birds crop up. You'll notice I picked a relative 'easy' variety. I have a lot of learning to do, best if I don't have to learn on too many fronts at once!

Their history fascinates me. They're just a neat bird. When I didn't have them I found I actually missed having them around. They were easy to have around. Their only real management requirement is that they need to forage. I found lack of forage affected them negatively even when I tried to compensate in food and larger run space. I basically live in a swamp most of the year. When it starts to warm up, the carpenter ants come out. I don't want them around my house. The best pest control I have found is Dorking hens. Once I lost them, nothing else did as good. Those girls used to line up to be let out and then race each other to the best spot to eat big fat carpenter ants. They were cheaper than the pest control company I use now.

I had my Dorkings for a couple years when my mom was showing me old photos of her as a child growing up in Georgia. There were 5 toes on the hens around her feet. They had that Dorking look. My mom totally discounted the birds other than to say that the same flock had been in the family for generations. All gone when they up and moved. And that is what happened to good heritage flocks. Gone without a trace.

Jennifer

My limited experience with silver has shown me that silver and red do not make good bedfellows.

 

[gjensen]

Oh how I wish I had a neighbor like this! It would be so nice to be able to spend some time in the company of a really good breeder who isn't having his attention being pulled 15 different ways.

Lacy, I have a couple good "chicken neighbors", but I do not know what they do or don't do. I know they have good birds.

 

[gjensen]

The problem is as much misinformation as information, and a lot of the blind leading the blind. Too many "internet experts" with a pretty website and a flashy story. Then as mentioned, many of the most knowledgable breeders and poultrymen in the country are not on-line at all. Lucky there's a few like Walt and NYREDS and the like that do share their wisdom with newcomers.

Experience is the best teacher, and the more you learn the more successful you'll be. There are a million different thoughts on how to breed, and what works for one doesn't work for everyone. The results are what matters in the end.

I agree with that last statement completely. We pick up on what we can along the way, but the real deal is getting in there and doing it. The birds tell on us.

 

[pigsflyacres]

According to the chicken calculator you can use a wild type cock over a silver duckwing hen and then only use the hens from subsequent crosses to get back to pure silver duckwing. It takes awhile! SG over wild type red hen goes faster. But the chicken calculator is so clinical. Not messy like a live animal with genes you don't know about.

So...I can't comment about brassiness in males. It might very well be a problem.

 

[gjensen]

According to the chicken calculator you can use a wild type cock over a silver duckwing hen and then only use the hens from subsequent crosses to get back to pure silver duckwing. It takes awhile! SG over wild type red hen goes faster. But the chicken calculator is so clinical. Not messy like a live animal with genes you don't know about.

So...I can't comment about brassiness in males. It might very well be a problem.

I might be wrong, but I suspect that is where the problem would be.

You can use anything and get back to anything. It is the consequences that come along with it that gets you. There is a lot that the chicken calculator does not tell you.

 

[gjensen]

The old man in the crowd.