Heritage Large Fowl - Phase II

[capayvalleychick]

Gotcha, anybody else think the same? That will save me a trip!

I don't have anywhere near the experience & knowledge that Walt does, but I have a little experience with Delawares. When I was looking for breeding stock, I passed on Whitmore Farms. Some people with them were happy but I just wasn't impressed by any of the birds that I saw (photos) from them.

I hesitate to say that anyone has the "best" of any breed. What I can offer is my opinion as a breeder who is trying to breed standard bred Delawares. I also want to offer you encouragement if that is a breed of your choice.

IMO, all that I've seen still need work. I am impressed with the photos on cpartist's website http://eightacresfarm.weebly.com/delawares.html Their frame size does not look as wide as Kathyinmo's. Some of the tails look a bit pinched. The color needs improvement but not as much as Kathy's. I might consider these if I were looking.

I've had 3 strains of Delawares, starting with some from Sand Hill. Glenn has been working with this strain for decades with emphasis on production qualities. Awesome layers and a decent meat bird for a small family, but not for production. Would need some work to meet standard but this is another strain that I would recommend- if you don't mind improving on them for a few years.
My Braden Delawares were a huge disappointment. Bill is the nicest man, I hate to disparage his stock. That strain gave me the most experience with seeing a great number of SOP defects & DQs firsthand. They were relatively scrawny, poor layers and most of them dropped dead when the summer heat set in. Other breeders may have had better results but I would not recommend this strain.
Last year, I had my own combination of the Sand Hill/Braden birds that I had intended to keep and try to improve upon. Then, I was fortunate to be able to get some chicks from Kathyinmo. As those chicks matured and I got a good look at the width of them compared to all the others, I got rid of the other line. There was a huge difference in frame size!

I'm very happy with Kathy's strain. I can see in them what the original Delaware must have been. They are, still, a work in progress. They didn't start laying until 30 weeks, but started off with huge brown eggs and many of the hens lay every day. They didn't fill out their frame as well as I had hoped. (Bear in mind that I have the Schilling illustration in my mind's eye.) They matured slower than the traditional Delaware should. This may have something to do with my management, diet, environment... who knows. I have the next generation now growing out and I think they are maturing a bit faster. I'll select for that. With the birds from Kathy, the color on the females is almost to standard but the males have too much barring. Something else to work on.

I like the Delaware as a meat bird. Once I get these maturing as fast as the original Delaware, I can see the breed giving those Freedom Rangers a run for their money. I think they will appeal to farmers who want the qualities of a heritage breed to raise on pasture.
My plan is, to raise Delawares as fryers and Silver Dorkings as roasters.

Here are a couple of not so good photos of the birds from Kathy: (8 months of age)

 

[southernmomma]

It helps to be familiar with them and have seen better. Walt can comment better concerning what he saw that would lead him to come to his conclusion. I could write a long list. I simply do not like them and would not start there. It bothers me to see poor birds touted as something good. However, I understand that with rare breeds, you start where you can. Just do not make them out to be what they are not.

Get that Standard, and get familiar with the language. It took me some time and cross referencing to other breeds to get where I could get a good sense of it. Do not get to caught up in the pictures. Some are better than others. They can help give you an idea, but that is about it in some. Some are pretty darn good.

This Delaware is a little better, but it is not a profile shot, which hurts the illustration. There are some points that could be critiqued, but overall is not a bad bird. Something that I would say is a place to start. This is not a project bird, and it is not mine. I hope that it is ok to use it. You can't tell much from it, but you can see enough to note that it is on a different level than the others.

Getting the Standard and going to shows= highest priority. At this point I don't know how people make a final breed choice without doing those two things.

M

 

[Lacy Blues]

It helps to be familiar with them and have seen better. Walt can comment better concerning what he saw that would lead him to come to his conclusion. I could write a long list. I simply do not like them and would not start there. It bothers me to see poor birds touted as something good. However, I understand that with rare breeds, you start where you can. Just do not make them out to be what they are not.

Get that Standard, and get familiar with the language. It took me some time and cross referencing to other breeds to get where I could get a good sense of it. Do not get to caught up in the pictures. Some are better than others. They can help give you an idea, but that is about it in some. Some are pretty darn good.

This Delaware is a little better, but it is not a profile shot, which hurts the illustration. There are some points that could be critiqued, but overall is not a bad bird. Something that I would say is a place to start. This is not a project bird, and it is not mine. I hope that it is ok to use it. You can't tell much from it, but you can see enough to note that it is on a different level than the others.

I think a lot of times that people tout their birds to be something that they're not is simply a lack of education. If they would take the time to study the standard and see what a bird SHOULD be, and then go to some shows and see what is out there and look again at their birds... they'd likely change their mind about them. This bird above, though it is not a profile shot is still a good one and I'd use him if needed, based on the spread of his tail feathers. This indicates how much capacity there is in the abdomen. The male passes this genetic info to his daughters and the females to her sons. You want lots of space between the pelvic bones and also between those and the end of the breast bone. Picking them up and putting your hands on them is the only way to be sure. If you use a male that is tight in his back end, he passes to his daughters, she passes it to her sons, he passes it back and over the generations your birds are getting tighter and tighter to where there are issues when it comes time to lay eggs.

One other thing about this bird (and I don't know how old he is) is how close his legs are. If he is still fairly young, he could improve but he appears to be standing on his own inner toes. Men have stated that they should be able to place their closed fist between the legs of a bird... that's a lot of room. I have small hands so it doesn't apply here unless I try it and demand more space.

 

[gjensen]

I think the whitmore delawares were started from hatchery birds. I had some of those. I never got any of the sandhill delawares to try. another local breeder that had some of the same lines that I had was winning at the shows. I think delawares appealed to me for the large brown eggs and fairly meaty carcass and that they were a Virginia bird at one time(called delmarvas for the Delaware, Maryland, and Virginia eastern shore where these birds fed a lot of people in the 1950's).I have found another bird with a Virginia history in these Manuel Reynolds asils. Reynolds imported these birds from Pakistan to his Radford Va. home many years ago and only a few people have them now in their pure form.

The Orientals do not get a lot of attention here, but I think they should get more. There are not any that have more history, and we start getting back into the earliest years of keeping poultry. I do not know of any class that has more history. When we speak of some of the oldest breeds, we are speaking of birds that are new or young compared to these. We would go from hundred or hundreds to thousands in comparison.

They are not for everyone, but anyone that has a sincere interest in chickens in general should be familiar with them, and at least appreciate them. They are impressive breeds of birds that have probably had more influence on what we have today than is realized.

I can only speak for myself, but I find them fascinating and remarkable birds. I have often considered getting and keeping a couple pairs or trios. I have doubted that I would do them the justice they would deserve. I am most interested in "fowl for the farm", so to speak. I think that I would have enjoyed giving them a try. I have even considered bantams from this class, but have hesitated, feeling like they were not the same thing.

 

[gjensen]

I think a lot of times that people tout their birds to be something that they're not is simply a lack of education. If they would take the time to study the standard and see what a bird SHOULD be, and then go to some shows and see what is out there and look again at their birds... they'd likely change their mind about them. This bird above, though it is not a profile shot is still a good one and I'd use him if needed, based on the spread of his tail feathers. This indicates how much capacity there is in the abdomen. The male passes this genetic info to his daughters and the females to her sons. You want lots of space between the pelvic bones and also between those and the end of the breast bone. Picking them up and putting your hands on them is the only way to be sure. If you use a male that is tight in his back end, he passes to his daughters, she passes it to her sons, he passes it back and over the generations your birds are getting tighter and tighter to where there are issues when it comes time to lay eggs.

One other thing about this bird (and I don't know how old he is) is how close his legs are. If he is still fairly young, he could improve but he appears to be standing on his own inner toes. Men have stated that they should be able to place their closed fist between the legs of a bird... that's a lot of room. I have small hands so it doesn't apply here unless I try it and demand more space.

That bird is at an angle, Lacy. That makes a birds legs appear closer than what they are. I could put my fist between his legs, and I do not have small hands. Birds are always moving so unless you can get a good profile shot, they are not especially useful.

I only used this because I think it is enough to mark a difference between these and the others. I do not have any good photos. I do not own this breed. I do have an interest in this breed, because what they could be. This breed has a lot of potential as a good all round bird. I like the utility breeds. Just so many try them, realize how much work there is, and give up.
They never caught on with the good breeders. I think they came on the scene too late, and missed the bus. Other than the Ams, the most recent American breeds are rare in quality. The NHs were in as bad of shape until someone brought them here from somewhere else.

 

[bmvf]

Quote: Gotcha, anybody else think the same? That will save me a trip!
Sorry Walt if i doubted you and asked for other opinions! I'm new to non-hatchery birds and this site.

I want to thank those that gave the references I will check into them. I also want to thank everyone for their opinions. I should get a SOP and also get to some shows. I see the APA has the local fair listed as a sanctioned show. My daughter turns 5 this fall and I'd like to get her into some sort of 4-H project when she is old enough. As a dairy farmer i absolutely refuse to breed a cow for show because I would be breeding a cow that wouldn't work at all in a grazing herd like mine. Chickens would sure be an option to replace a dairy calf!

 

[gjensen]

Sorry Walt if i doubted you and asked for other opinions! I'm new to non-hatchery birds and this site.

I want to thank those that gave the references I will check into them. I also want to thank everyone for their opinions. I should get a SOP and also get to some shows. I see the APA has the local fair listed as a sanctioned show. My daughter turns 5 this fall and I'd like to get her into some sort of 4-H project when she is old enough. As a dairy farmer i absolutely refuse to breed a cow for show because I would be breeding a cow that wouldn't work at all in a grazing herd like mine. Chickens would sure be an option to replace a dairy calf!

I look at it from both sides. When I look at a bird, I want to "see" a good bird. When I pick it up, I want to "feel" a good bird. Then I want to prove that it is a good bird. Someone used to say on this board that the bird has to look the way it should and do the way it should. That is how I feel about it. I am not interested in look alike, no matter how good they look. That is just not my style. It is not a negative statement, because people have a variety of reasons and priorities. A variety of strains with a variety of strengths, to me, makes the breed better off as a whole. It is when the breed strengths get lost all together . . . . .

I will go as far to say that it is not what it is supposed to be unless it does what it is supposed to do. A bird is it's genotype and phenotype. I say that with realistic expectations. I like my NHs, but I do not call them good NHs. They are not bad, but they are not good.

With the rare breeds, it is hard to find ideal. You have to weigh it all out, and decide how you want to move forward. There are a couple options that have a lot of potential. It will take time, commitment, and hard work to realize that potential. What is positive is a variety of people taking a variety of approaches, plugging at it, and moving forward. If no one is doing that, there is no chance.

 

[cubalaya]

The Orientals do not get a lot of attention here, but I think they should get more. There are not any that have more history, and we start getting back into the earliest years of keeping poultry. I do not know of any class that has more history. When we speak of some of the oldest breeds, we are speaking of birds that are new or young compared to these. We would go from hundred or hundreds to thousands in comparison.

They are not for everyone, but anyone that has a sincere interest in chickens in general should be familiar with them, and at least appreciate them. They are impressive breeds of birds that have probably had more influence on what we have today than is realized.

I can only speak for myself, but I find them fascinating and remarkable birds. I have often considered getting and keeping a couple pairs or trios. I have doubted that I would do them the justice they would deserve. I am most interested in "fowl for the farm", so to speak. I think that I would have enjoyed giving them a try. I have even considered bantams from this class, but have hesitated, feeling like they were not the same thing.

the cubalayas, believe it or not, are my 'farm chickens'. they keep me in eggs to eat and sell and I process all the culls for the freezer. the asils are an ancient breed and for some reason I really like them. they are dead game to other chicken but so tame towards people that my granddaughter can pick up any one of them. they are great broody hens and I will only raise chicks that are hen hatched. if you decide that you want a pair, contact me in the fall(sept.). I don't keep very many but a pair or trio is all you really need

 

[BGMatt]

Sorry Walt if i doubted you and asked for other opinions! I'm new to non-hatchery birds and this site.

I want to thank those that gave the references I will check into them. I also want to thank everyone for their opinions. I should get a SOP and also get to some shows. I see the APA has the local fair listed as a sanctioned show. My daughter turns 5 this fall and I'd like to get her into some sort of 4-H project when she is old enough. As a dairy farmer i absolutely refuse to breed a cow for show because I would be breeding a cow that wouldn't work at all in a grazing herd like mine. Chickens would sure be an option to replace a dairy calf!

Check into local poultry clubs to, there should be some club run non-fair shows in your area, that part of the country is kind of a hotbed for poultry. There is a world of difference between fairs (which even when sanctioned draw a different crowd) and shows. Fairs usually last longer which means more stress to birds, and the crowds of people and kids poking through the cages and harassing the birds, etc. Don't get me wrong I'm not anti-fair at all, as a matter of fact I show at my local fair (provided I can take a vacation from work and be there to keep an eye on my birds) and show my young birds at it, if they can acclimate to a fair when the real shows hit they'll be old pros!

Poultry makes a wonderful 4-H project for youth and many breeders will bend over backwards to help youth get started, big thumbs up on that idea!

 

[gjensen]

the cubalayas, believe it or not, are my 'farm chickens'. they keep me in eggs to eat and sell and I process all the culls for the freezer. the asils are an ancient breed and for some reason I really like them. they are dead game to other chicken but so tame towards people that my granddaughter can pick up any one of them. they are great broody hens and I will only raise chicks that are hen hatched. if you decide that you want a pair, contact me in the fall(sept.). I don't keep very many but a pair or trio is all you really need

I like the Cubalayas to. Good ones are gorgeous. That is a breed that could be of interest to some. Southernmomma expressed interest in a bird that could be useful for meat and be good mothers. They would be a good consideration for a setting like that, and if some good ones were found, could be shown to. I like them, myself. There is a lot to be said for birds that are lower input. Especially with feed prices the way they are.

I might take you up on that, without any expectations. I do not know what the future holds. I would make sure they received good care.