Heritage Large Fowl - Phase II

[LeslieDJoyce]

I am partial to Red Shouldered Silver Duckwings. I know they don't breed true, but they sure are pretty.
Best,
Karen

One more reason I need to order my copy of the SOP ... so I can describe these cool color patterns.

As soon as the last of these cockerels are all gone, I can start sorting the Delaware cockerels into "keep" and "cull" as I'll have a great place to put the culls ... I'll for sure need the SOP for that.

Fingers Crossed that I'll be responsible with the SOP and not start looking for little gaps to fill with "new" colors and sizes of Heritage birds ...

 

[kimberly35042]

Quote:
lol. Karen -- I've always heard it called Golden Duckwing or in Dorking vernacular (with shaded hackles), Colored.

 

[Lacy Blues]

One more reason I need to order my copy of the SOP ... so I can describe these cool color patterns.

As soon as the last of these cockerels are all gone, I can start sorting the Delaware cockerels into "keep" and "cull" as I'll have a great place to put the culls ... I'll for sure need the SOP for that.

Fingers Crossed that I'll be responsible with the SOP and not start looking for little gaps to fill with "new" colors and sizes of Heritage birds ...

If you're trying to breed to the standard and be diligent about it, that alone will keep you plenty busy.

 

[LeslieDJoyce]

If you're trying to breed to the standard and be diligent about it, that alone will keep you plenty busy.

Quite. Getting the Delawares up to standard is a big project! And I really can't imagine running more than one breeding project at a time. Certainly not without confining them more than I want to.

Chicken math. Now that I've started a real breeding project I've gotten a lot more interested in subtraction.

 

[MagicChicken]

Quote:
If they are "new" colors they are NOT heritage. "Heritage" generally refers to old breeds and varieties that were in the Standard before the poultry industry changed in the mid 1900's. That industry shift was toward birds bred for large-scale egg or meat production, and away from dual purpose farmyard birds. The large-scale egg and meat world required fast producing birds that were slaughtered and replaced every year or so, so longevity and long term productivity are not significant factors in selection. The old "heritage" lines were bred for long, vigorous, productive lives - a totally different selection process. Raising heritage birds is as much about maintaining the vigor, utility, and production as it is about the "looks" of the breed.

Edited to add: Not trying to be preachy here. Just trying to bring this thread back on track. It has gone far afield.

 

[LeslieDJoyce]

If they are "new" colors they are NOT heritage.  "Heritage" generally refers to old breeds and varieties that were in the Standard before the poultry industry changed in the mid 1900's.   That industry shift was toward birds bred for large-scale egg or meat production, and away from dual purpose farmyard birds.  The large-scale egg and meat world required fast producing birds that were slaughtered and replaced every year or so, so longevity and long term productivity are not significant factors in selection.  The old "heritage" lines were bred for long, vigorous, productive lives - a totally different selection process.  Raising heritage birds is as much about maintaining the vigor, utility, and production as it is about the "looks" of the breed. 

Edited to add: Not trying to be preachy here.  Just trying to bring this thread back on track.  It has gone far afield.

I'm pretty sure this is what we've been discussing recently in this thread. So if you're preaching, it's to the choir.

 

[3riverschick]

Hi Leslie,
There is no point to these huge fluffy Sussex. Except personal desire of the breeder and ignorance of the Standard. In Australia, it is all about size. They grow their Lights as big as possible and add extra fluffiness to make them look even bigger. That's fine if they want to do it that way there. When they reached the US, folks were enamored with the size and fluffy. APA Standard is 9 lbs. for cocks and 7 for the hen. Historically that works for the breed. These Aussie birds are automatically DQ'ed at APA show simply by "oversize" penalty points. To me, a 12 lb. + Sussex is simply an aberration, not to be tolerated. Except if they are part of a breeding program to attain proper APA size in a breeding program. Some breeders have had success melding them with US strains and reducing the size of the Aussies but increasing the size of the US strains to a happy medium. That's a good thing if they can get rid of the Aussie fluff. Sussex should not look like Orpingtons. What's the diff? Well in Orpingtons you cannot see the definition of the thigh profile because of the extravagant pantaloons. In Sussex you should be able to see the outline definition of the thigh because Sussex are a close feathered breed. What is close feathered? It means that the feathers do not lift and rise in the opposite direction of their proper lay with every gentle breeze that comes by.
Best Regards,
Karen

 

[gjensen]

When I was a young man, I played around with the color of mice. I dug out and set a wide variety of colors in several groups. At the time, I had no idea what the possibilities were, and it was fun to dig out a new color and test it. I was not aware of any books on the subject, and there was no internet to access. There is a surprising amount of possibilities in mammals.
Obviously there is a even wider amount of possibilities in poultry, and the patterns make it even more interesting. I can see where it would interest someone to play with color. I get that. You can play with it endlessly and all of the possibilities are vast.

As I began to play with poultry my interests was grounded in form and function. There is a little more to it than some imply, and I enjoyed playing around with it. I never got serious and bought books, and when I started there was no internet like there is today. It was only a personal interest, and I did not do any communicating with anyone on the subject. I was aware that people showed poultry, but I knew nothing of it past the State Fair. I had no idea what all was involved or how many layers there was.

So the point is that I get the instincts to tinker around. The part that I do not get is that these different colors are sold, traded, and promoted as if they were something more than they are. It is just color. It does not take a rocket scientist to fix a color in an existing breed that is not found in that color. Especially not now, because there is so much information readily available. I am not criticizing the interest in color. There is a lot there. There is just more to the bird than color. A lot more.

Knowing what I know now, a real accomplishment is to bring a flock to some level of perfection. Bringing the color/pattern to some level of perfection, the type, egg color and quality, etc etc. When the entire bird is considered and worked on, there is a heck of a lot more to it. It is something that you could work on for a lifetime and never call it finished. They are just birds until they become something to admire, and then to appreciate them you have to have an appreciation for all of the parts. It is one of them that you have to know to see. We cannot know unless we know.
I am not talking about an individual bird either. A family of fowl is not any good until they produce a reasonable percentage of high quality offspring. A pretty color does not give a flock real value.

 

[LeslieDJoyce]

 Hi Leslie,
 There is no point to these huge fluffy Sussex. Except personal desire of the breeder and ignorance of the Standard. In Australia, it is all about size. They grow their Lights as big as possible and add extra fluffiness to make them look even bigger. That's fine if they want to do it that way there.  When they reached the US, folks were enamored with the size and fluffy.  APA Standard is 9 lbs. for cocks and 7 for the hen. Historically that works for the breed. These Aussie birds are automatically DQ'ed at APA show simply by "oversize" penalty points. To me, a 12 lb. + Sussex is simply an aberration, not to be tolerated. Except if they are part of a breeding program to attain proper APA size in a breeding program.  Some breeders have had success melding them with US strains and reducing the size of the Aussies but increasing the size of the US strains to a happy medium. That's a good thing if they can get rid of the Aussie fluff. Sussex should not look like Orpingtons. What's the diff? Well in Orpingtons  you cannot see the definition of the  thigh profile because of the extravagant pantaloons. In Sussex you should be able to see the outline definition of the thigh because Sussex are a close feathered breed. What is close feathered? It means that the feathers do not lift and rise in the opposite direction of their proper lay with every gentle breeze that comes by.
 Best Regards,
 Karen

I think it's interesting how different styles of the same breeds are so regionalized. It makes me question a few things, though.

I can see the temptation to go for size. The big birds are impressive and would make a good meal presuming you wanted to keep them around long enough to reach maximum weights. And fluffy feathers sure are pretty, so I get the temptation of those, too. Regardless, I think the standards were developed for good reasons.

Two things I learned this breeding season. The first was about feathering. The looser fluffier feathers don't protect the hens as well. I think my breeders' feathers are too fluffy, so selecting for better feather quality is on my list of things to work on.

The second was about big birds. I had an extra-large bird go broody (hatchery Jersey Giant) ... she was clumsy around the eggs and crushed some and even crushed some of the chicks. She had plenty of space, she's just heavy and large and awkward. I don't see how that would work well in a self-sustaining flock unless you had smaller designated brooding breeds. Oversized cocks bring in other problems. I'll be weighing my potential breeders to make sure they aren't too big.

 

[Lacy Blues]

Just remember Leslie that it is a lot easier to go down in size than it is to go up. You don't want to get rid of an excellent cock bird because he is one pound overweight. See if you can find a hen that balances him nicely. Perhaps she is at weight or a little under. They say you get size and type mostly from the female. I'm not sure I believe this outright but it's something I'm willing to test. Like Bob used to say... kick the can down the middle of the road. It isn't going to stay in the middle but keep kicking it back to the middle. There is an advocate in permaculture circles that says "The problem is usually the solution." meaning, I believe, that you can correct the problem by using the problem to its potential and by making it do what you want it to do.