Heritage Large Fowl - Phase II

[LeslieDJoyce]

Thank you for your input LeslieDJoyce!
So, I can keep them on the feed I have now and then set out oyster shell around 20 weeks of age? Would that be soon enough if I am expecting point of lay to be 24 weeks, but not too soon so I don't get any harm done from improper excess calcium?

It depends on if they are hatchery birds or breeder birds. It isn't unusual for hatchery birds to start laying at 16 weeks, so you could put the oyster shell out at 14 or so weeks. They will not eat excessive oyster shell if it is offered free-choice.

Wow. As I type that, it sounds early (my dual purpose heritage birds don't lay until much later). But that's accurate for hatchery birds -- our hatchery sexlinks started laying by 16 weeks. Chicks will not eat too much of the calcium, so having it available is NOT a risk.

We ALWAYS have oyster shell available, the only exception is in our Cockerel Colony coop/run. Our chicks are broody raised, and the hens sometimes start to lay again when their clutches are about 3 weeks old. They need the calcium, and will binge on it when they're starting to lay. The chicks will be interested in what their "mother" eats, and they might taste the calcium, but they will not eat too much of it unless it's hidden in their feed.

 

[Sunflowergirl]

It depends on if they are hatchery birds or breeder birds. It isn't unusual for hatchery birds to start laying at 16 weeks, so you could put the oyster shell out at 14 or so weeks. They will not eat excessive oyster shell if it is offered free-choice.

Wow. As I type that, it sounds early (my dual purpose heritage birds don't lay until much later). But that's accurate for hatchery birds -- our hatchery sexlinks started laying by 16 weeks. Chicks will not eat too much of the calcium, so having it available is NOT a risk.

We ALWAYS have oyster shell available, the only exception is in our Cockerel Colony coop/run. Our chicks are broody raised, and the hens sometimes start to lay again when their clutches are about 3 weeks old. They need the calcium, and will binge on it when they're starting to lay. The chicks will be interested in what their "mother" eats, and they might taste the calcium, but they will not eat too much of it unless it's hidden in their feed.

These are not hatchery birds. I will admit that I am only going by estimates on point of lay age I have read in literature pertaining to Speckled Sussex. This is my first experience with a heritage breed.

 

[bnjrob]

These are not hatchery birds. I will admit that I am only going by estimates on point of lay age I have read in literature pertaining to Speckled Sussex. This is my first experience with a heritage breed.

Your birds may be average or they may be different. A number of folks that have my breed, Javas, say that their birds don't lay until 8-10 months old. For our flock, average is 5-6 months to lay and we've had some that started at 4.5 months old and really surprised us. And our birds did not originate from hatcheries, they come from old bloodlines, but they still started laying earlier than other folks' birds.

Usually when we see the very first pullet egg, we don't see another one for a week or so, which is why we wait to throw out the oyster shell or crushed egg shells that we feed back to them. That way we aren't wasting the shells on pullets that aren't ready to lay because our birds often like to play in them and scatter them everywhere if they aren't ready to eat them yet. It's really whatever works for you.

I would guess that you are planning to breed your birds? If so, you can just do like most of us do - use the original birds as your guinea pigs to see what works and what doesn't and then as you go along, you adjust you husbandry to suit you and get the results you're looking for. Don't try to overthink it. You can drive yourself nuts that way. Things are always going to be changing so that just when you think you have a routine down pat, one little thing changes and you have to change what you're doing to compensate.

 

[LeslieDJoyce]

Here are two little "authoritative" articles on calcium for laying hens.

This one indicates that a "pre-layer" diet with extra calcium helps future laying hens.

http://www.extension.org/pages/7109...llets-for-organic-egg-production#.VaZ2GMZViko

And this one discusses particle size of calcium for laying hens (larger particles are more beneficial, hence the benefit of calcium in the form of oyster shell instead of ground up in the feed).

http://www.poultryindustrycouncil.ca/pdfs/factsheets/fs_133.pdf

For me, the choice to offer oyster shell on the side means I don't have to try to guess how much the birds need, or when they might need it.

 

[LeslieDJoyce]

Your birds may be average or they may be different. A number of folks that have my breed, Javas, say that their birds don't lay until 8-10 months old. For our flock, average is 5-6 months to lay and we've had some that started at 4.5 months old and really surprised us. And our birds did not originate from hatcheries, they come from old bloodlines, but they still started laying earlier than other folks' birds.

Usually when we see the very first pullet egg, we don't see another one for a week or so, which is why we wait to throw out the oyster shell or crushed egg shells that we feed back to them. That way we aren't wasting the shells on pullets that aren't ready to lay because our birds often like to play in them and scatter them everywhere if they aren't ready to eat them yet. It's really whatever works for you.

I would guess that you are planning to breed your birds? If so, you can just do like most of us do - use the original birds as your guinea pigs to see what works and what doesn't and then as you go along, you adjust you husbandry to suit you and get the results you're looking for. Don't try to overthink it. You can drive yourself nuts that way. Things are always going to be changing so that just when you think you have a routine down pat, one little thing changes and you have to change what you're doing to compensate.

Ha! SO TRUE! We are constantly tweaking things.

 

[finnfur]

We are along the same lines- SS Rock n Rooster pellets that has no added calcium and oyster shell free serve - I have never seen a Cockerel mess with the shells-
In addition all get FF wheat -Our chicks get chick starter in beginning but they will eat FF grain at 3 days and pellets as soon as they can eat them because they are there if they want them but have the crumbles till they do

 

[bnjrob]

Here are two little "authoritative" articles on calcium for laying hens.

This one indicates that a "pre-layer" diet with extra calcium helps future laying hens.

http://www.extension.org/pages/7109...llets-for-organic-egg-production#.VaZ2GMZViko

And this one discusses particle size of calcium for laying hens (larger particles are more beneficial, hence the benefit of calcium in the form of oyster shell instead of ground up in the feed).

http://www.poultryindustrycouncil.ca/pdfs/factsheets/fs_133.pdf

For me, the choice to offer oyster shell on the side means I don't have to try to guess how much the birds need, or when they might need it.

Interesting articles. I think I'd have to try and either crunch of oyster/egg shells into powder and mix with feed, or crush calcium tablets into the feed, to get our pullets to take the calcium prior to beginning to lay since they like to play with it and stomp it into the ground unless they are actually laying. But powdering it and adding to feed might be an option and might help. I don't think it would hurt them any to start with some extra calcium just prior to egg laying. I'm about to tear my hair out with this one group of hens that are 1 & 2 years old. About half of them refuse to eat oyster shells or egg shells and I wind up with thin shelled eggs that keep breaking in my pocket. They are really pissing me off here lately, because broken egg all over me when it is 100 degrees outside is just gross.

 

[bnjrob]

We are along the same lines- SS Rock n Rooster pellets that has no added calcium and oyster shell free serve - I have never seen a Cockerel mess with the shells-
In addition all get FF wheat -Our chicks get chick starter in beginning but they will eat FF grain at 3 days and pellets as soon as they can eat them because they are there if they want them but have the crumbles till they do

I'd never seen a rooster mess with oyster shells either, until this year. One of our older cocks has been eating oyster shells the last few weeks. Not a lot, but some. We haven't seen any type of problem to indicate a calcium deficiency or a problem with him eating the oyster shells, so we've just let him alone. But it is funny to see him along side a hen eating oyster shell.

 

[Sunflowergirl]

Interesting articles. I think I'd have to try and either crunch of oyster/egg shells into powder and mix with feed, or crush calcium tablets into the feed, to get our pullets to take the calcium prior to beginning to lay since they like to play with it and stomp it into the ground unless they are actually laying. But powdering it and adding to feed might be an option and might help. I don't think it would hurt them any to start with some extra calcium just prior to egg laying. I'm about to tear my hair out with this one group of hens that are 1 & 2 years old. About half of them refuse to eat oyster shells or egg shells and I wind up with thin shelled eggs that keep breaking in my pocket. They are really pissing me off here lately, because broken egg all over me when it is 100 degrees outside is just gross.

Have you thought about using the liquid calcium you can get from the health food stores or natural grocery stores? In the winter, for my hatchery chickens, I used to mix in some cod liver oil with eggs I had scrambles along with some of their feed. You could do a wet feed of some sort and measure out some liquid calcium.

 

[LeslieDJoyce]

Interesting articles.  I think I'd have to try and either crunch of oyster/egg shells into powder and mix with feed, or crush calcium tablets into the feed, to get our pullets to take the calcium prior to beginning to lay since they like to play with it and stomp it into the ground unless they are actually laying.  But powdering it and adding to feed might be an option and might help.  I don't think it would hurt them any to start with some extra calcium just prior to egg laying. I'm about to tear my hair out with this one group of hens that are 1 & 2 years old.  About half of them refuse to eat oyster shells or egg shells and I wind up with thin shelled eggs that keep breaking in my pocket.  They are really pissing me off here lately, because broken egg all over me when it is 100 degrees outside is just gross. 

I wouldn't know how to measure the calcium for them. The total percentage of calcium supplements in their diet is so tiny that I'd worry I'd overdo it and cause gout.

I know it's a balance of nutrients that lead to proper calcium for egg shells. Maybe giving them a NutriBalancer type supplement for a while would be more helpful than trying to sneak more calcium into their diet?

Like @Finnfur, I offer some fermented feed, which is supposed to help develop good gut bacteria for proper nutrient absorption. If you wanted to go ahead with sneaking extra calcium into their feed, or NutriBalancer, then wet feed like fermented feed would make that easier.

Also ... there are other factors that contribute to thin shelled eggs, like bacterial infections. I don't like thinking about that much ... We also have some thinned shelled eggs here. I'll cull the hens as I identify them. I don't like the mess, either. The birds and dog love cleaning up the egg goop, though. But getting a thin-shelled layer out of my flock is a win for sure.

As for the birds making a mess ... We have our oyster shell in big metal hoppers placed near the doors to the coop and laying boxes. The birds don't seem to spill oyster shell from those hoppers. But they do spill & waste feed if we put it in those same hoppers. Just this week we had to switch out some feeders because the flock suddenly figured out how to waste feed from them. We tested a couple different feeders and have temporarily settled on using the same PVC troughs for pellets as for wet (fermented) feed.

Birds are so weird!!