Heritage Large Fowl - Phase II

[bnjrob]

Have you thought about using the liquid calcium you can get from the health food stores or natural grocery stores? In the winter, for my hatchery chickens, I used to mix in some cod liver oil with eggs I had scrambles along with some of their feed. You could do a wet feed of some sort and measure out some liquid calcium.

I wouldn't know how to measure the calcium for them. The total percentage of calcium supplements in their diet is so tiny that I'd worry I'd overdo it and cause gout.

I know it's a balance of nutrients that lead to proper calcium for egg shells. Maybe giving them a NutriBalancer type supplement for a while would be more helpful than trying to sneak more calcium into their diet?

Like @Finnfur, I offer some fermented feed, which is supposed to help develop good gut bacteria for proper nutrient absorption. If you wanted to go ahead with sneaking extra calcium into their feed, or NutriBalancer, then wet feed like fermented feed would make that easier.

Also ... there are other factors that contribute to thin shelled eggs, like bacterial infections. I don't like thinking about that much ... We also have some thinned shelled eggs here. I'll cull the hens as I identify them. I don't like the mess, either. The birds and dog love cleaning up the egg goop, though. But getting a thin-shelled layer out of my flock is a win for sure.

As for the birds making a mess ... We have our oyster shell in big metal hoppers placed near the doors to the coop and laying boxes. The birds don't seem to spill oyster shell from those hoppers. But they do spill & waste feed if we put it in those same hoppers. Just this week we had to switch out some feeders because the flock suddenly figured out how to waste feed from them. We tested a couple different feeders and have temporarily settled on using the same PVC troughs for pellets as for wet (fermented) feed.

Birds are so weird!!

Haven't thought of liquid calcium but it's an idea. I could even mix up a solution and syringe feed it to the offending hens if I had to. I have the good fortune of a husband who is a veterinarian to help out with proper dosing of things so I'm not too worried with overdosing them. So far it hasn't been enough of a big deal to think of forcing some calcium on them, but I need to start looking at hatching from them between now and next spring and I can't have thin eggs for hatching.

I know that the picky hens are not hiding an infection - they outright refuse to eat the oyster shell and literally turn their beaks up at it. They're like oyster shell snobs. They are a picky bunch. They are a different bloodline that we acquired last year and they just want to be different for some reason.

We are transitioning to new feeders as we can afford them, to the Peck-O-Matic feeder made with a 5 gallon bucket. We trialed one out and we stopped having so much feed loss that we got more. They seem pricey, but they cost about the same as the feeders we have to order online, since no one near us has ever carried the feeders we preferred. But even the other feeders we were ordering did not prevent feed loss from rain (our feed hangs in runs), or from the birds knocking into the feeder and spilling. The feed loss from rain has always been a problem, if rain comes unexpectedly and I don't have time to get the feeders inside. But keeping the feed closed up in a big bucket has been just wonderful. Plus, they have to spend more time getting the food to come out of the bucket, so it keeps them occupied longer, which is good for the cockerel grow out pens, since those little boys are such buttheads to each other sometimes.

 

[Zanna]

Quote:
Do you have access to any crab shells/cleanings? I guess they are chitin, a different kind of calcium, (oyster/clam/hermit crab shells are calcium carbonate) but my chickens of all ages devour them. We crab/clam/fish a lot this time of year and I save the shells, grind them in blender, freeze in containers then feed them occasionally throughout the year. The other thing I do every month or so is rake back the sand/shavings on my coop floors (dirt floor base) and spread some calpril around which is a small granular form of calcium carbonate (think lime for odor/ammonia control or to sweeten garden soil) and I am sure they eat some of those granules as well when scratching around in the bedding. Rarely have a soft shelled egg but still happens once in a while.

 

[LeslieDJoyce]

Quote:
Do you have access to any crab shells/cleanings? I guess they are chitin, a different kind of calcium, (oyster/clam/hermit crab shells are calcium carbonate) but my chickens of all ages devour them. We crab/clam/fish a lot this time of year and I save the shells, grind them in blender, freeze in containers then feed them occasionally throughout the year. The other thing I do every month or so is rake back the sand/shavings on my coop floors (dirt floor base) and spread some calpril around which is a small granular form of calcium carbonate (think lime for odor/ammonia control or to sweeten garden soil) and I am sure they eat some of those granules as well when scratching around in the bedding. Rarely have a soft shelled egg but still happens once in a while.

Is calpril like Sweet PDZ? We use the sweet PDZ in the winters, and had read that it's fine for the birds to eat for the same reason you mention. I'd think crab shells would be awesome! And even better if I get to eat the crab! We had access to shrimp shells for a while (friend's restaurant) and the birds loved them. I Vitamixed them before feeding, just to make sure there weren't crop problems. If you look at NutriBalancer up close, it has little shells in it. Very cool stuff.

 

[Zanna]

Quote:
Calpril is straight calcium carbonate. I am not sure sweet PDZ has calcium in it at all, I know it has zeolites for ammonia/odor control and is safe for chickens to eat but not sure if there would be any benefit to them eating it. I use it in my roost poop trays in the breeder pens. It has much finer granules (i buy the granulated not the powdered form) than the Calpril. Calpril is sold as a farming/gardening soil amendment.

 

[bnjrob]

I could probably find an online source for crab shells but none readily available. Could probably find some calcium carbonate granules too. Trick my prissy hens into eating some calcium. Now that you mention another option, I might be able to find crawdads for them to eat. The free range hens love to eat the few crawdads we have in the pond, the prissy breeder hens might eat craw dads. It's just 4 of them, the other 4 in their pen don't have a problem eating oyster shells. Wouldn't hurt 'em and that pen of hens is already mad at me this week because I threw a cock in with them because I needed the pen he was in for someone else.

 

[3riverschick]

If you have oyster shell available free choice, potentially never?

Around here we found that using an "all flock" type formula for all our birds, then supplementing with oyster shell on the side, keeps things a lot simpler and saner for us. We usually have mixed ages of birds in our flocks, breeders, both genders ... and we find they all do better, even the layers, on the more nutritious formula of an "all flock" recipe.

To answer the specific question ... studies indicate pullets will benefit from having extra calcium a few weeks before their first egg. As that's difficult to predict and individual to each bird, it's good to have oyster shell available for them, too.

LeslieDJoyce,
what's the name of your all flock brand? I am getting ready to with mine to an all-flock too.
Thanks,
Karen

 

[MagicChicken]

Quote:
The time it takes for birds to get to point of lay can vary within a breed. It is influenced by how much selection pressure the breeder puts on early laying. My Urch line Javas start laying around 4-5 months old. My Javas from another breeder's line are just beginning to think about laying at 6-7 months old. Once you get a good foundation flock established you can start to push things by hatching from the earlier-laying birds. Keep good records. And don't lose sight of the Standard characteristics while you tweak the age to maturity in your flock

 

[LeslieDJoyce]

LeslieDJoyce,
what's the name of your all flock brand? I am getting ready to with mine to an all-flock too.
 Thanks,
 Karen

It's a very local thing. Union Point Custom Feed, a mix just for me. The feed mixer there is really great.

 

[neopolitancrazy]

...We are transitioning to new feeders as we can afford them, to the Peck-O-Matic feeder made with a 5 gallon bucket. We trialed one out and we stopped having so much feed loss that we got more. They seem pricey, but they cost about the same as the feeders we have to order online, since no one near us has ever carried the feeders we preferred. But even the other feeders we were ordering did not prevent feed loss from rain (our feed hangs in runs), or from the birds knocking into the feeder and spilling. The feed loss from rain has always been a problem, if rain comes unexpectedly and I don't have time to get the feeders inside. But keeping the feed closed up in a big bucket has been just wonderful. Plus, they have to spend more time getting the food to come out of the bucket, so it keeps them occupied longer, which is good for the cockerel grow out pens, since those little boys are such buttheads to each other sometimes.

Thanks for the tip, I will try these out!!
Angela

 

[gjensen]

How many birds is a single Peck-O-Matic feeder suitable for? I would be concerned about the qty. of growers vs. qty. of these feeders. I would not be as concerned for adult birds in smaller quantities.

The old styled feeders with wider and deeper trays are far superior to the new ones that they sell today. When they can be found, they are worth considering.

It was good to see the comments on the variability within strains. That is difficult for some to come to terms with, without any experience. There is variability among strains, as there is among individual birds and flocks. There often is not a breed norm that is as well defined as some other things might be.

I am not so certain that it is quick and easy to make those adjustments though. It depends on the variability to select from. If they are all very late to come into lay, then progress would be painfully slow. Then it can boil down to priorities if there is plenty of variability (there often is not). That is how many selection points are a concern. The more there are, the longer it takes to make measurable progress.

I do not worry about calcium supplementation until I see the first egg. There can be upwards to two weeks before 75% are into full lay. Again, depending on that variability. The higher producing the strain is, the more important correctness is. ISA Browns, and the exhibition strain Orpingtons are vastly different animals. If we ever find ourselves behind the eight ball, there are quick acting solutions. Deficiencies are easier to prevent than they are to correct, much of the time.

When you know your birds, you know when the eggs are coming, and you can do as you please. My Catalanas can start as early as 16wks, but 75% is not laying until before 20wks. I would prefer, given their size and type, for them to be in the 20-22wk range. A little later than they are now.

Do not count the first couple eggs to figure point of lay. Point of lay is better figured somewhere in the range of 75% full lay. That is, 75% of the pullets are actually laying. The first egg or two does not mean a lot.

The POL is dependent, in part, on management. There is no advantages to pushing them, and only disadvantages. There are also no advantages to retarding their development. Moderate gains are strong gains with the pullets. My pullets are only on 20% chick starter and free ranged. Nothing more and nothing less.

Crab shell meal or crab meal is an excellent supplement. I would be reluctant to use freshwater vertebrates or invertebrates without cooking them first.

Plenty of calcium in the soil is helpful when they are allowed to range. Particularly if there is plenty of tender young greens (not grass). This is especially helpful for growing pullets. Some soils are naturally high.

Simply ground limestone is cheap and effective in most areas.