Heritage Large Fowl - Phase II

[gjensen]

He is absolutely correct. Java cocks should have a sloping back that doesn't break before it reaches the base of the tail. Australorps have a back that slopes down, but it breaks before it reaches the tail. Both breeds should have a convex sweep at the base of the tail but the upward stuff starts sooner in the Australorp. Most of my birds have more of an Australorp back line.

Javas should have yellow skin and yellow soles. Australorps should have whitish/pink soles (which goes with white skin). Australorps have slightly longer earlobes. Plus there are a bunch of other small differences.

Yellow skin and soles are recessive and it is a feature I am struggling to retain in my flock. It is made trickier because the degree of visible yellow is often affected by their diet and other factors. Sometimes a chick with yellow soles will have white soles when it grows out. I try to keep track of sole color over time because I don't want to kill a good bird based on white feet when it actually does have the genes for yellow. The birds in question had white soles but they had faint yellow soles as chicks. When I note "faint yellow " it means I'm not sure if it's really yellow or if I'm hallucinating. I suspect a lot of the "faint yellow" soled chicks are heterozygous for yellow and aren't truly yellow soled. But every once in a while one of those faint yellow soled chicks will grow up to have bright yellow soles as an adult.

Between sole color, back line and earlobes, many of my birds do look more like Australorps. I've just got it in my head that I'm breeding Javas so I haven't thought much about the possibility of giving up on Java and breeding these birds to the Australorp standard instead. Probably not going to do that because I love the Java look, but I might show a few of them as Australorps in the meantime if I don't have any decent Javas to show.

There is a reason that Javas need a lot of work. I am seeing the influence of several other breeds in these birds, not just Australorp. Most of the pullets have cushions. Several of them have short backs (mostly from the other line I've got). There are incorrect earlobe colors in the flock. All sorts of weirdness. Not sure I can weed it all out in my lifetime. In the meantime I'm enjoying my pretty black chickens, whatever the judge wants to call them. The chickens don't care what breed we call them.

I've never had good luck photographing these black birds. Will give it another try. Might be several days before I get to it - things are a bit chaotic here. Getting ready to have new flooring installed, which means packing up most of my house so they can move the furniture out. Hopefully I can get rid of a lot of junk in the process. It sure is time consuming.

I get it, but I do not get it. I have not heard a reason to give up on the variety or breed.

Do your birds have yellow skin? I assume that they do. The soles would be a smaller concern of mine, if they had yellow skin. To me, yellow skin would be a disqualifier concerning showing them as Australorps.

The type differences would be a real concern. But is there any variability? If you hatched 100 chicks, could you get a quad that had remotely decent type? Is there another line that produces some birds with decent type?

Incorrect ear lobe colors must mean a little white in the earlobes? That can certainly be bred out.

It could be that they have been crossed with some Australorps. That would not surprise me a bit. it is rather common. Especially with the rare breeds. That does not bother me, if the effort has been seen all of the way through before passing any stock on.

I get the rare breed thing. Believe me. I have had a taste of working through a lot of problems. I took rather drastic measures to try to turn mine around. I could see working on a project like this for an entire lifetime.

I guess my conclusion trying to understand is that if I decided to show Australorps, I would purchase some Australorps. I do not know what is out there. Matt got a good start with some good birds, and seams to be doing well with them. I would want to start there myself. They are nice looking birds.

 

[MagicChicken]

Quote:
Javas are supposed to have yellow skin and soles. Lack of yellow in the sole is a disqualification. Some of my birds have yellow skin. Most do not. From what I understand yellow skin is controlled by the same recessive gene responsible for the yellow soles. It is easier for me to see the sole color than skin color. Some birds that had appeared to have white soles and skin actually had a pale yellow tint to their soles and skin after they were culled - but the yellow wasn't noticeable until they had been bled out. At which point it was too late. I have been careful to always use at least one yellow-soled bird in each breeding pair, so the birds that aren't yellow-soled should be carrying at least one yellow gene. I've been trying to work on back lines and overall body shape, so I have tolerated the white-soled birds that are carrying a yellow gene if their body type is better than the truly yellow-soled birds. I don't have the space to raise enough chicks to cull a majority of them based on sole color alone and still have enough with good body types left to choose from. We work with what we can.

Showing is something I do every once in a while to get feedback on the birds, but I don't enjoy it and it is not my primary goal. Other Java breeders around here wish I would show more because they would like to get the breed numbers up at the shows. But I don't think my birds are ready for showing. (My instincts must be right, if the judge thinks they would do better as Australorps

)

I have bought a few birds from another breeder whose Javas sometimes place fairly well. But mixing lines creates other issues. And I'm not fond of his birds' personalities. They are much flightier than my original birds. I don't enjoy being around them as much. And that behavior is passed on to the next generation. Ugh!

My primary goal is to enjoy the chickens and if I can improve the breed over time, that would be awesome. I don't really want to raise Australorps for show. Just thought it was an interesting reminder that we need to look critically at our birds in the context of other, similar breeds because we might be deluding ourselves with coop blindness.

The same judge also told an Australorp exhibitor that her birds were looking more like Orpingtons. Again, I could see where he was coming from. That particular breeder likes a fatter, fluffier look and is pushing her birds toward it. We all get coop blindness. A clue-by-four upside the head can be extremely valuable.

 

[bnjrob]

Javas are supposed to have yellow skin and soles. Lack of yellow in the sole is a disqualification. Some of my birds have yellow skin. Most do not. From what I understand yellow skin is controlled by the same recessive gene responsible for the yellow soles. It is easier for me to see the sole color than skin color. Some birds that had appeared to have white soles and skin actually had a pale yellow tint to their soles and skin after they were culled - but the yellow wasn't noticeable until they had been bled out. At which point it was too late. I have been careful to always use at least one yellow-soled bird in each breeding pair, so the birds that aren't yellow-soled should be carrying at least one yellow gene. I've been trying to work on back lines and overall body shape, so I have tolerated the white-soled birds that are carrying a yellow gene if their body type is better than the truly yellow-soled birds. I don't have the space to raise enough chicks to cull a majority of them based on sole color alone and still have enough with good body types left to choose from. We work with what we can.

Showing is something I do every once in a while to get feedback on the birds, but I don't enjoy it and it is not my primary goal. Other Java breeders around here wish I would show more because they would like to get the breed numbers up at the shows. But I don't think my birds are ready for showing. (My instincts must be right, if the judge thinks they would do better as Australorps

)

I have bought a few birds from another breeder whose Javas sometimes place fairly well. But mixing lines creates other issues. And I'm not fond of his birds' personalities. They are much flightier than my original birds. I don't enjoy being around them as much. And that behavior is passed on to the next generation. Ugh!

My primary goal is to enjoy the chickens and if I can improve the breed over time, that would be awesome. I don't really want to raise Australorps for show. Just thought it was an interesting reminder that we need to look critically at our birds in the context of other, similar breeds because we might be deluding ourselves with coop blindness.

The same judge also told an Australorp exhibitor that her birds were looking more like Orpingtons. Again, I could see where he was coming from. That particular breeder likes a fatter, fluffier look and is pushing her birds toward it. We all get coop blindness. A clue-by-four upside the head can be extremely valuable.

Figured it was probably a short back kind of issue if the judge mentioned them being better as Australorps. Of course then there is the problem a guy had a couple of years ago where the judge told him that his Java cockerel's back was too long. I sat there looking at the photos of that bird with a good back on it and thinking that the judge must not be familiar with the Java SOP if he thought that the back on the bird was too long. But that's what you get too sometimes - the biases and individual interpretations because the SOP is a guideline and not a strict set of rules - even when you have a bird that you think does match the SOP reasonably well.

I continue to think that the quirks that Javas seem to have may have been the reason they were popular as farm/table birds but were not exhibited as much and had club members practically begging people to show their Javas way-back-when. They have this yellow foot issue and so many of them fade out as the birds mature, even the males, so that unless you feed them a lot of yellow/orange based food, they don't exhibit that bright yellow on their feet that some other breeds do. And even their tail angles can change as they mature so a bird that is ok as a juvenile may have a really wrong tail angle as an adult, or vice versa. And with the Mottleds that get whiter with age - aye yi yi. These little things make it difficult to make complementary breeding choices sometimes with Javas. If I were to take one to a show, I'd have to spend a couple of months before the show just shoving corn and pumpkin in them to get their foot color back to a bright yellow before I could even begin to decide which one looked the best to enter into the show.

 

[gjensen]

Javas are supposed to have yellow skin and soles. Lack of yellow in the sole is a disqualification. Some of my birds have yellow skin. Most do not. From what I understand yellow skin is controlled by the same recessive gene responsible for the yellow soles. It is easier for me to see the sole color than skin color. Some birds that had appeared to have white soles and skin actually had a pale yellow tint to their soles and skin after they were culled - but the yellow wasn't noticeable until they had been bled out. At which point it was too late. I have been careful to always use at least one yellow-soled bird in each breeding pair, so the birds that aren't yellow-soled should be carrying at least one yellow gene. I've been trying to work on back lines and overall body shape, so I have tolerated the white-soled birds that are carrying a yellow gene if their body type is better than the truly yellow-soled birds. I don't have the space to raise enough chicks to cull a majority of them based on sole color alone and still have enough with good body types left to choose from. We work with what we can.

Showing is something I do every once in a while to get feedback on the birds, but I don't enjoy it and it is not my primary goal. Other Java breeders around here wish I would show more because they would like to get the breed numbers up at the shows. But I don't think my birds are ready for showing. (My instincts must be right, if the judge thinks they would do better as Australorps

)

I have bought a few birds from another breeder whose Javas sometimes place fairly well. But mixing lines creates other issues. And I'm not fond of his birds' personalities. They are much flightier than my original birds. I don't enjoy being around them as much. And that behavior is passed on to the next generation. Ugh!

My primary goal is to enjoy the chickens and if I can improve the breed over time, that would be awesome. I don't really want to raise Australorps for show. Just thought it was an interesting reminder that we need to look critically at our birds in the context of other, similar breeds because we might be deluding ourselves with coop blindness.

The same judge also told an Australorp exhibitor that her birds were looking more like Orpingtons. Again, I could see where he was coming from. That particular breeder likes a fatter, fluffier look and is pushing her birds toward it. We all get coop blindness. A clue-by-four upside the head can be extremely valuable.

The Orp look is common with the Australorps. The excessively loose feathering is common in many breeds, and ruins type. Personally, I think it makes the birds look sloppy and baggy. But . . . we seam to like fluffy. LOL. ( I am just speaking in jest)

I get you on the not ready to show (the birds). I have felt the same way. I just visit, and walk through. Ask some questions, and go about my business. I hope to. It is a goal of mine. Not to win. Mine will never beat the Leghorns, and there will be no competition. I just want to get them there. Get them seen, and get some thoughts other than my own. Similar to what you expressed.

You do not say how they other Java measure up, other than temperament. That is hereditary, but so is the milder nature of their counterpart. I would not use a man fighter, but I would not be reluctant to otherwise. You would be mindful of it as you selected them. It matters to you.
If this line offers a chance of some improvement, then use them on the side. I think it is safer to do such a thing on the side anyways. My projects are on the side. I could not bare to commit it all to uncertainty.

If you could just get one positive trait that you need fixed on the side, they could be the solution. I am talking about a trio or two for a few generations.

I did not realize that the soles could be a disqualification for this breed. I learned something today. The correct skin color would be a big deal to me.

Regardless, I wish you well with this. I have only been trying unsuccessfully to be encouraging. I get the challenges. That is much of the fun in this it seams. I enjoy working on the problems. That comes with the rare and neglected breeds. I like the challenge most days. Regardless what we were working with, we would be working on something.

 

[gjensen]

No matter what we are breeding and/or showing, there is a unique set of challenges. Some here are working with Delaware, and there are unique color challenges with them. A couple are trying Columbian colored birds. That is a difficult and challenging color. It has long been understood that it was. The breeds represented here are not in the best shape, not in this variety. I could go on forever about the unique hang ups my breed and color variety has. There is a reason there are not any consistently good colored birds in black tailed buff. Buff is a struggle all of it's own.

I guess that is the fun in it. This seams to require some want to, and the ability and desire to solve problems. They are there to be solved. It certainly requires patience. It takes a time to sort through the things we talk about.

It is good to hear the discussion of the people actually breeding for improvement, these rare breeds.

 

[fowlman01]

No matter what we are breeding and/or showing, there is a unique set of challenges. Some here are working with Delaware, and there are unique color challenges with them. A couple are trying Columbian colored birds. That is a difficult and challenging color. It has long been understood that it was. The breeds represented here are not in the best shape, not in this variety. I could go on forever about the unique hang ups my breed and color variety has. There is a reason there are not any consistently good colored birds in black tailed buff. Buff is a struggle all of it's own.

I guess that is the fun in it. This seams to require some want to, and the ability and desire to solve problems. They are there to be solved. It certainly requires patience. It takes a time to sort through the things we talk about.

It is good to hear the discussion of the people actually breeding for improvement, these rare breeds.

Breeding to a written Standard is very difficult, many people give up soon. I enjoy this hobby because it is difficult. I get bored very easily if things come to me easily. Patience is really what this hobby is about. I never thought of myself as patient, but with chickens I am for some reason. You are doing an outstanding job with the Catalana's George. This is a truly neglected breed here in the States.

Judges have problems with Java's because they never see them...but they should look in the Standard if they don't know. If you have a rare breed and want to show them it is always good to bring the Standard for your breed to the show to share with the judge. It is also good to get opinions from other breeders that know the breed but may not be judges....or judges that are showing and not judging.

Walt

 

[MagicChicken]

Quote:
The first time I showed my Javas the judge carefully checked the Standard before judging the breed. I was thrilled they were willing to check and not rely on faulty memory. Some of the people in our poultry club were critical of the judging that day, because the judge had pulled out the Standard for more than one breed. They were arguing that it meant the judge was incompetent. Sigh. I pointed out it meant the judge was conscientious and the judge should be commended. Not sure if it sunk in.

 

[MagicChicken]

Quote:
It's more the break point of the back slope. He has criticized the other breeder's line for having backs that are too short. I've been trying to keep the long backs, but not have them break. It's especially hard with the females because those darned cushions mess up otherwise decent back lines, and they are proving difficult to get rid of. If anyone has advice on cushion elimination I'd love to hear it.

The other breeder's birds have denser, more compact bodies (good solid weight) and tighter feathering, but the tail feathers are a bit narrower than in my birds. Keel length can be an issue in his birds. Sometimes his flock pops out a spectacular bird. Overall his birds are better than mine, producing a higher percentage of good birds than mine do, but not all of his birds are better than mine. Neither flock is consistent.

Head shape is an issue in both lines. One of the reasons I have kept a few of my more Australorp-looking birds is because those happen to be the birds with the roundest heads. If I could graft that head onto a bird with a correct back line I'd be well on the way to solving several issues. Too bad it doesn't work that way, LOL!

 

[bnjrob]

It's more the break point of the back slope. He has criticized the other breeder's line for having backs that are too short. I've been trying to keep the long backs, but not have them break. It's especially hard with the females because those darned cushions mess up otherwise decent back lines, and they are proving difficult to get rid of. If anyone has advice on cushion elimination I'd love to hear it.

The other breeder's birds have denser, more compact bodies (good solid weight) and tighter feathering, but the tail feathers are a bit narrower than in my birds. Keel length can be an issue in his birds. Sometimes his flock pops out a spectacular bird. Overall his birds are better than mine, producing a higher percentage of good birds than mine do, but not all of his birds are better than mine. Neither flock is consistent.

Head shape is an issue in both lines. One of the reasons I have kept a few of my more Australorp-looking birds is because those happen to be the birds with the roundest heads. If I could graft that head onto a bird with a correct back line I'd be well on the way to solving several issues. Too bad it doesn't work that way, LOL!

Ugh, cushions. I wish there were more antique photographs of Javas to see just how many had cushions. It would help to get an idea of whether we're fighting just the last century of breeding, or if this is something they have been fighting all along - like the red and gold feathers that pop out.

All of ours tend to have looser feathering no matter which bloodline they come from. There are worse things than loose feathering. These darn squiggly combs in the McGraws make me nuts. And the McGraw birds are flightier than the Urch birds and make me want to scream. The other day all 8 hens and the cock in one pen crammed themselves into the nestbox to hide while I refilled their feed. eye roll

 

[fowlman01]

The first time I showed my Javas the judge carefully checked the Standard before judging the breed. I was thrilled they were willing to check and not rely on faulty memory. Some of the people in our poultry club were critical of the judging that day, because the judge had pulled out the Standard for more than one breed. They were arguing that it meant the judge was incompetent.  Sigh. I pointed out it meant the judge was conscientious and the judge should be commended. Not sure if it sunk in. 

You had a good judge. There are no judges I know of now that knows the whole Standard. There is the implied pressure on judges to not refer to the APA Standard, but the Standard says that a judge needs to have the latest version with them while judging. I would respect a judge who referred to the Standard. The alternative is that the judge guesses. .Which one do they prefer?

Walt