Heritage Large Fowl - Phase II

[gjensen]

Posted these photos on the Heritage of Perfection thread and it was suggested I post them here also....so here they are

I've been selecting first string birds for the Columbian Wyandotte breed pens and have been banding them.
What other qualities should I be considering?

This Columbian pullet shows the round breast I look for



While these pictures are of a Blue Columbian, they show the characteristics I look for in a Columbian patterned bird for the breed pen.

A sharp clean contrast of white and color in the primary feathers. I would like to see more of the solid color on the wing

A narrow white edge on the tail feathers. This tail will fill out.


An even expanse of white edged feathering in the cape with good color contrast ,a good eye color, a proper ear lobe, a nice wide head, with good texture on the comb and wattles.


A nice straight comb, wider at the beak and tapering to a nice tip. The comb must follow the skull.

A nice buttery yellow shank and foot with nicely shaped toes.

A nice white back with no ticking that is wide both at the shoulders all the way down the back to the tail


A tail tent with a wide teepee. I should be able to place my full palm between her legs feeling a straight keel with plenty of room for organs and egg production


Wings held close to the side with a nice horizontal line.

I like the contrast of black and white of the Columbian variety. Some of that is last with the muted blue. The only place I ever really fell for blue is with good lacing on an Andalusian. I like it well enough in Blue Wheaton etc. Here, I enjoy the sharp contrasts.

The main thing that jumps out at me, is how tight should the feather be?

You do have beautiful birds.

I like how you broke the different points down, and commented appropriately.

I wish that you guys would remark on breeding this color more. Balancing the black etc. It would be helpful to more than one here.

 

[gjensen]

@gjensen ... I bet those are gorgeous in the sunshine.

I've had eye surgery, and now have even worse vision than before. Hoping that's temporary. I can't wash eggs for our egg selling income source, so am collecting them on my counter. From what I can see, the baskets are looking mighty empt, I'm considering that a "blessing." Ha!

Also, sold some cockerels to someone who took them to a processor, got news back that we've got worms, which I suspected to the point of knowing anyway, and am now digging through all the frustrating stuff about how to deal with that considering all the factors here. Yuckity yuck.

Dad decided to sell the farm portion of our property, breaking an enormous list of promises he made me when I traded him "my" property for the use of that parcel. Dad has this amazing ability to pretend his "wishful thinking" is reality, so kept telling me it wouldn't impact the poultry stuff. Of course the new property line goes right through my breeding coop and eliminates ALL the green part of the pasture. To say I'm annoyed is a HUGE understatement.

Once I can see again, IF I can see again, I'm going to have a lot of practical stuff to work out. Fingers crossed I can do that without completely losing my cool. I'm not sure where I'll put the birds, or frisbee the dog.

They are. They are a bird that usually looks better in person. It is like that with NHs to. It is difficult to capture the color. This photo shows the color pretty well. My son did pretty well.

Have you discussed your vision with your doctor? I assume you have. Is there any news?

All free range chickens have worms. The consideration is the load. Is the parasite load effecting health? I do worm pullets before POL, and they are moved to new ground. I worm hens at their molt, and then move them to new ground.

I am sorry to here the news concerning the adjustments with your birds. Do you still have access to "your" property? Good luck.

 

[fowlman01]

Took a couple of my Black Java cockerels to a small local show a couple of weeks ago because I wanted feedback on the direction I was headed. After the judging was over I had a long discussion with the judge. He mentioned that the birds I brought would do better as Australorps. He has a point.

Now I'm considering entering one of those same birds in an upcoming show - as an Australorp. Does that make me a bad person?

It would be good to see pictures of the birds.

Walt

 

[LeslieDJoyce]

They are. They are a bird that usually looks better in person. It is like that with NHs to. It is difficult to capture the color. This photo shows the color pretty well. My son did pretty well.

Have you discussed your vision with your doctor? I assume you have. Is there any news?

All free range chickens have worms. The consideration is the load. Is the parasite load effecting health? I do worm pullets before POL, and they are moved to new ground. I worm hens at their molt, and then move them to new ground.

I am sorry to here the news concerning the adjustments with your birds. Do you still have access to "your" property? Good luck.

We had a breeding group meeting at my partner's place recently. Beautiful sunny day. She works with the Delawares as well as New Hampshires. Those NHs were glorious in the sunshine. I agree with what you say about the black tail setting off the deep honey buff really well. I've also been very drawn to the Buff Brahmas, which I've seen locally as bantams. It's a great color combination.

The eye surgery was to repair a detached retina. One of the things they did for me was to put an air bubble in my eye to hold stuff together. That bubble looks like a big wobbly black blob and is about all I can see for now. Kinda cool, objectively speaking. But nauseating and intrusive. It will dissolve over time. They are more worried about my activity level ... I'm supposed to lay on my side to keep the pressure down in my eye while it mends. I can have my vision reassessed in maybe 3-4 months. Until then, I have regular appointments with the surgery team. It's interesting how much the structure of an eye resembles an egg. Also ...

The lesson: Don't bonk your head in the chicken coop.

We will lease back the farm property for a couple years, and if we actually DO anything about the poultry setup, we do have a couple acres of land left. It is an opportunity to design things more tailored to breeding a single breed. But that will require cooperation and clearly I don't get much cooperation.

One nice thing is the coops are light ... metal greenhouse frames, hardware cloth, plastic. If I break the laying coop up into three breeding coops with individual runs, I'd have a more workable space. For fewer birds. It could help me be more focused, haha. Without cooperation, I'll have to give up the birds entirely.

I intended to have a rotational pasture system here. I just lacked the cooperation to set that up. I'm going to call a local poultry vet today, get "official" input about how to handle the parasite management, and I anticipate there will be some direct "man-to-man" discussion about rotational pastures that might maybe help us move in that direction. I've been planning on culling the laying flock and worming the rest about now ... it will be my first ever fall worming. The current revised plan is to worm the culls before they're culled.

I *think* the worming should help give us a more accurate idea about the size potential for the growing birds, as well as increased laying rates, which are both things I should be tracking as important factors in keeping Dual Purpose birds. Based on the feathers, energy levels, etc., the birds appear to be fairly healthy as is. I just always think we could, and therefore should, do better for the birds.

I don't want to spoil fertility by treating for parasites. I also feel a huge responsibility to anyone who eats our eggs. Two reasons why I've been avoiding worming until now. It will be interesting to see what advice I get about worming the layers.

 

[gjensen]

We had a breeding group meeting at my partner's place recently. Beautiful sunny day. She works with the Delawares as well as New Hampshires. Those NHs were glorious in the sunshine. I agree with what you say about the black tail setting off the deep honey buff really well. I've also been very drawn to the Buff Brahmas, which I've seen locally as bantams. It's a great color combination.

The eye surgery was to repair a detached retina. One of the things they did for me was to put an air bubble in my eye to hold stuff together. That bubble looks like a big wobbly black blob and is about all I can see for now. Kinda cool, objectively speaking. But nauseating and intrusive. It will dissolve over time. They are more worried about my activity level ... I'm supposed to lay on my side to keep the pressure down in my eye while it mends. I can have my vision reassessed in maybe 3-4 months. Until then, I have regular appointments with the surgery team. It's interesting how much the structure of an eye resembles an egg. Also ...

The lesson: Don't bonk your head in the chicken coop.

We will lease back the farm property for a couple years, and if we actually DO anything about the poultry setup, we do have a couple acres of land left. It is an opportunity to design things more tailored to breeding a single breed. But that will require cooperation and clearly I don't get much cooperation.

One nice thing is the coops are light ... metal greenhouse frames, hardware cloth, plastic. If I break the laying coop up into three breeding coops with individual runs, I'd have a more workable space. For fewer birds. It could help me be more focused, haha. Without cooperation, I'll have to give up the birds entirely.

I intended to have a rotational pasture system here. I just lacked the cooperation to set that up. I'm going to call a local poultry vet today, get "official" input about how to handle the parasite management, and I anticipate there will be some direct "man-to-man" discussion about rotational pastures that might maybe help us move in that direction. I've been planning on culling the laying flock and worming the rest about now ... it will be my first ever fall worming. The current revised plan is to worm the culls before they're culled.

I *think* the worming should help give us a more accurate idea about the size potential for the growing birds, as well as increased laying rates, which are both things I should be tracking as important factors in keeping Dual Purpose birds. Based on the feathers, energy levels, etc., the birds appear to be fairly healthy as is. I just always think we could, and therefore should, do better for the birds.

I don't want to spoil fertility by treating for parasites. I also feel a huge responsibility to anyone who eats our eggs. Two reasons why I've been avoiding worming until now. It will be interesting to see what advice I get about worming the layers.

I am going to commit a sin by saying this, but rather than giving up on birds, bantams are an option. My health challenges has caused me to consider them. You can set the cages up where there is no bending over etc. Everything is simplified, and the costs are down. There is no shame in it. All of this is for your own good pleasure. It is a pleasure to enjoy a hobby like this.

Worming is part of the process. Managing parasites is part of managing birds. We should avoid extremes on either end of the spectrum. It is unrealistic to expect them to be free of them, and it is unfaithful to expect them to carry a large burden. I have always tried to pattern my worming schedule around moves to new pasture, and during times where the eggs are not a concern. For example, you are not getting any eggs when they molt. That is a once a year opportunity. That is all the hens need if they are not on ground where the burden is especially high. That is all you can do with layers.

I hope all gets well with your eye soon. That would be interesting, at least.

 

[LeslieDJoyce]

I am going to commit a sin by saying this, but rather than giving up on birds, bantams are an option. My health challenges has caused me to consider them. You can set the cages up where there is no bending over etc. Everything is simplified, and the costs are down. There is no shame in it. All of this is for your own good pleasure. It is a pleasure to enjoy a hobby like this.

Worming is part of the process. Managing parasites is part of managing birds. We should avoid extremes on either end of the spectrum. It is unrealistic to expect them to be free of them, and it is unfaithful to expect them to carry a large burden. I have always tried to pattern my worming schedule around moves to new pasture, and during times where the eggs are not a concern. For example, you are not getting any eggs when they molt. That is a once a year opportunity. That is all the hens need if they are not on ground where the burden is especially high. That is all you can do with layers.

I hope all gets well with your eye soon. That would be interesting, at least.

Last year we started treating for external parasites, and saw a lot of benefit from that in the condition of the birds. The plan has been to start treating this time of year for internal parasites as well. My awesome breeding partner has said she'll come help me do it if necessary. I think a treatment schedule of before POL and during the fall molt/winter slow down is ideal. The first few years with the hatchery layers we just didn't experience very much seasonal drop in the egg rates. We should have wormed last year, to be honest. The flock took a pretty long break. We had the perfect opportunity.

There are so many cute bantams locally. I can really see the appeal, especially for showing. Washing the big Dual Purpose birds is a pain. Sometimes literally.

I do really enjoy the birds. I know Dad enjoys them, too. He brags about them a lot, and loves sharing eggs with people. He never used to laugh much, since we got animals he giggles all the time, and always has funny stories to share. But he can get super grumpy and stubborn when he has to think about some specific responsibility.

The eye thing is super interesting. I maybe wouldn't have noticed the big change in vision, but I'd gone to a poultry show, and couldn't see the birds, which was a huge disappointment! It popped into my head, "I have a detached retina." I googled it, and all the symptoms fit. Weird how sometimes our intuition does so much work for us while we're having fun or working on something else. It's good to pay attention. I can't tell you how many times it has popped into my head to go check something specific with the birds, "just in time." I bet old timers would have a lot of stories about that.

 

[NanaKat]

Wow NanaKat! What a great post! Love the pics and proper commentary. Easy to understand. All I need to do it add some minor extra points which apply to my Sussex, not Wyandottes, and I could use this for my birds. Looks like you have some real nice color balancing going on in your bird's underfluff to get such nice top color in the white in your birds. Real nice birds, congrats!
 Karen

Thank you. It has been an ongoing process now for several years with great advice from folks right here .
This year I've been focusing on the legs and combs. I brought in a great White Wyandotte line from Larry Dye to breed to the Columbian to strengthen the combs and the leg color. An added benefit is the increased size.
Work continues on "building the barn before painting it".
Reading again...studying the1919 book by Harold A. Nourse about the Wyandotte Standard and breeding has been very helpful.
Selecting a cock with the right color to cover certain hens has helped balance the under fluff . This year I have been able to also select some for top color...something we all know is a challenge with the Columbian pattern.

 

[finnfur]

We don't seem to have a parasite problem although we use DE and sulphur.
What do ya'll prefer for worm treatment.

Leslie - Best of recovery on the eye surgery and be concerned with doctors instructions.
Detached retina is nothing to take lightly.

 

[MagicChicken]

 
Took a couple of my Black Java cockerels to a small local show a couple of weeks ago because I wanted feedback on the direction I was headed. After the judging was over I had a long discussion with the judge. He mentioned that the birds I brought would do better as Australorps. He has a point.

Now I'm considering entering one of those same birds in an upcoming show - as an Australorp. Does that make me a bad person?

  I wonder why he says that. Did he say why?

  Can you post some pictures of your birds?

He is absolutely correct. Java cocks should have a sloping back that doesn't break before it reaches the base of the tail. Australorps have a back that slopes down, but it breaks before it reaches the tail. Both breeds should have a convex sweep at the base of the tail but the upward stuff starts sooner in the Australorp. Most of my birds have more of an Australorp back line.

Javas should have yellow skin and yellow soles. Australorps should have whitish/pink soles (which goes with white skin). Australorps have slightly longer earlobes. Plus there are a bunch of other small differences.

Yellow skin and soles are recessive and it is a feature I am struggling to retain in my flock. It is made trickier because the degree of visible yellow is often affected by their diet and other factors. Sometimes a chick with yellow soles will have white soles when it grows out. I try to keep track of sole color over time because I don't want to kill a good bird based on white feet when it actually does have the genes for yellow. The birds in question had white soles but they had faint yellow soles as chicks. When I note "faint yellow " it means I'm not sure if it's really yellow or if I'm hallucinating. I suspect a lot of the "faint yellow" soled chicks are heterozygous for yellow and aren't truly yellow soled. But every once in a while one of those faint yellow soled chicks will grow up to have bright yellow soles as an adult.

Between sole color, back line and earlobes, many of my birds do look more like Australorps. I've just got it in my head that I'm breeding Javas so I haven't thought much about the possibility of giving up on Java and breeding these birds to the Australorp standard instead. Probably not going to do that because I love the Java look, but I might show a few of them as Australorps in the meantime if I don't have any decent Javas to show.

There is a reason that Javas need a lot of work. I am seeing the influence of several other breeds in these birds, not just Australorp. Most of the pullets have cushions. Several of them have short backs (mostly from the other line I've got). There are incorrect earlobe colors in the flock. All sorts of weirdness. Not sure I can weed it all out in my lifetime. In the meantime I'm enjoying my pretty black chickens, whatever the judge wants to call them. The chickens don't care what breed we call them.

I've never had good luck photographing these black birds. Will give it another try. Might be several days before I get to it - things are a bit chaotic here. Getting ready to have new flooring installed, which means packing up most of my house so they can move the furniture out. Hopefully I can get rid of a lot of junk in the process. It sure is time consuming.

 

[MagicChicken]

 
Took a couple of my Black Java cockerels to a small local show a couple of weeks ago because I wanted feedback on the direction I was headed. After the judging was over I had a long discussion with the judge. He mentioned that the birds I brought would do better as Australorps. He has a point.

Now I'm considering entering one of those same birds in an upcoming show - as an Australorp. Does that make me a bad person?

It would be good to see pictures of the birds.

Walt

I will see if I can get some illustrative photos. I find it hard to get good shots of black birds. Wish me luck.