Heritage Large Fowl - Phase II

[Beekissed]

Mary-- while I don't have an answer for you, I would like to adda question.

If birds do not show signs of infection and others do show signs of infection but recover-- are both groups worth keeping as breeders? Or is the line drawn at Very sick and needs nursing and antibiotics to recover?

Was it the bubonic plague in the dark ages where about 1/3 of the world population either died or survived. Among the survivors many never even got the disease despite being surrounded by the disease and the dying. THese are the people that went on and repopulated passing on their innate immunity thru genetics.

Great point. If chickens need antibiotics to live and thrive, can one truly say they are heritage quality birds? Or even be considered naturally hardy at that point? I've often asked this question or a similar version of it on this forum but have always gotten the answer that the chickens are given antibiotics to get over an illness just like a human would need them to get over an illness. But, is that getting over an illness or is it getting through an illness? To me, one is a crutch to help a weak immune system limp along until it hits another rough patch and needs the same crutch... and the other is walking through the fire and coming out on the other side stronger. No crutch required. Survival of the fittest and rightly so when speaking of the animal world and development of strong, heritage quality livestock.

Unfortunately, nowadays no one has any interest in developing heritage quality humans with a natural hardiness either...and that's such a shame as the world grows more filled with stronger, more hardy pathogens.

 

[ocap]

Was it the bubonic plague in the dark ages where about 1/3 of the world population either died or survived. Among the survivors many never even got the disease despite being surrounded by the disease and the dying. THese are the people that went on and repopulated passing on their innate immunity thru genetics.

bubonic plague is still alive in the mountains around Albuquerque, the rodents carry the fleas that carry the plague. Warning signs surprised us on our first walk on the trails in the national forest (30 years ago).

 

[3riverschick]

Hi,
Thank you all for your replies and suggestions.
Money is keeping me from doing the 3 way cross.
The other strains would have to come from flocks of Canadian origin.
Balancing excellence in the abstract is a critical part of allowing this Law to function. The clarity with which this Law works is extremely linked to the extent to which all the traits involved in the 2 sides of the A/B cross are recessive or dominant to each other. How well or poorly they balance in the abstract. This is why analysis and choice of flocks is so critical.
In other words, one can choose any gene pool they want. There are just 2 considerations. 1. The gene pool must have 3 pure line-bred strains in it which can be balanced against each other. 2. The male for the C strain must be of the highest quality available since the get from cross A/B/C will resemble him so closely. In collies, I used Strain A, in-bred; Strain B, line-bred; Strain C, in-bred.
Won't be making it to Boston , sigh. Haven't tried Craigslist, a good idea, thanks.
Best,
Karen
pure = no influx of foreign blood close-up in the pedigree ( 4 generations) and strategically selected for excellence within the line-breeding program, resulting in established excellence for that strain. Just a line-bred pedigree won't suffice.

 

[Pathfinders]

Unfortunately, nowadays no one has any interest in developing heritage quality humans with a natural hardiness either...and that's such a shame as the world grows more filled with stronger, more hardy pathogens.

Don't get me started on that. My life on the farm has given me a very different view about things than my suburbanite friends. And I may get smacked for this (please, don't anyone take this personally), but I do sometimes question the incredible lengths we go to with the medical system nowadays to prolong life that would never have happened even twenty years ago.

Premies who are born at 2 lbs, and who, when they grow up, will always need medical assistance just to continue to live. Elders who are dying yet who are given one after another heroic treatment because their relatives can't face that they're dying.

I dunno. I am pragmatic. No doubt if it were my grandchild born prematurely I would feel differently. But for me with humans as well as animals, quality of life has always been a big issue for me.

I watched my maternal grandmother spend ten years with dementia, not knowing who any of us were, lying in a nursing home, body whole, brain just gone. Not for me, nope. I want to go like my mother did, drop dead of an aneurysm. Boom. Gone. Sign me up for that. I've told my family, no heroic measures for me.

One does wonder if we're weakening the species sometimes...

 

[AletaG]

Quote:

MG Mereks heritage fowl

LOL you are BRILLIANT! I spit coffee - just missed my keyboard... Can I use that marketing, too? Maybe we can make it a good thing, eh? Like, MY kid's already HAD Ch. pox, so no worries...

Question:
When using Craig's List how do you manage the two types of "security", Bio-security for your flock and potential thieves?
I will need to use Craig's List to sell layers next fall, counting my chicks before they even lay

On another thread I commented that I don't know how you get the Sparrows to put on the little paper booties.

Exactly! But people get sooo offended... 'cause that might mean there's disease in their flock! Them's fightin' words!

I am venturing a guess here. I believe that the testing for Pullorum and AI are because of the potential harm to the commercial poultry industry. I think that in the years before NPIP that pullorum was wiping out entire flocks of commercial birds and the "reservoirs" for the disease were the backyard flocks. My NPIP tester said that he has been doing the testing for over 20 years and has never had one sample come back positive for pullorum or IA. He has seen some false positives, but when the flock was rechecked in a week, it was always negative.

This was how it was explained to me also. The problem is that in WA there's this minimum # to get the state vet out to test the birds. So the person with "fluffy Sue" who carries it around like a toy poodle is probably the real threat, and will never be tested. And yes, the vans and Sheriff would be knocking at the door if they come up with a nasty strain of AI, PT, or virulent Newcastle.

When I was a kid in 4H I quarantined birds coming back from a show, until as a senior I helped my leader and mentor unpack his birds from a show and noticed he just tossed them back in the pen. After that I did not bother, have never had a sick bird coming back from a show. If you have birds too valuable to a breeding program to be shown, either quarantine birds that would go back in that pen, or simply keep breeders and show birds separate.

This seems practical. Breeders are kept sep during 'breeding season' anyway, so maybe just keep them there until you are done showing, as well... Hmmm...

I'm wondering if it's probably more use when the stock originates out of country and is only a gen or 2 removed from being elsewhere. All of my losses were from relative newcomers... Birchen Marans and Rhodebars - 3 of 5 Marans, 2 of 2 Rhodebars died. The Icees, same age, kept together never once even showed a symptom. Waiting to see if the new HRIR show any, but willing to bet they've probably been exposed and won't have any trouble. They were ranged at Bud's place all summer.

 

[thedragonlady]

I am really glad the question of MG came up also as I previously read about having to destroy the flock, ect. That went a bit against my grain and in my case I would probably quit chickens forever if that were the case of having to destroy everything I"ve built up the past two years.

That said, we appear to be having an outbreak of dry fowl pox here. Even the worst affected, a 6 yr old roo in a heavy molt is still eating and drinking so I think everything will be just fine. Many birds do not yet have the sores, even in the same coop.

I am wondering tho does anyone know the incubation period for fowl pox after exposure to infected birds or a mosquito bite? Here they could have been infected either or both ways. Just that was not mentioned in the things I was reading up on it.

While there is an active outbreak I plan to not move birds around which might stress them more, figured I would wait two or three weeks and hopefully everyone would be done and life will go on.

My state NPIP vet advised that the incubation for Fowl Pox is a week to 10 days. Then the birds are contagious until all scabs are gone.Mild pox on the combs and face is not the killer that Wet Pox is when it gets into the throat.So far, my fans, and my wrens, have kept that nasty bug out of here.

 

[bnjrob]

So what is th point of testing the backyard flocks??? Seems like the backard flocks are not contaiminating the commercial flocks because there is not crossing of paths so to speak. I've read that some facilities don't hire staff if they have poultry and that makes sense to me. BUt if the backyard flocks are not the real issue rather it is the wild birds they why are so many dollars spent on testing?? I"m starting to think this is all pollitical propaganda.

( PLease understand that I came from the univeristy teachings of complete biosecurity: once a bird leaves the barn it doesn't come back. I'm learning!!! Slowly I am coming to understand that backyard flock may actually be the healthiest flocks with very good immune systems. Yah, I'm slow but teachable.)

Some of it is political - the commercial poultry industry has lobbyists and can apply monetary pressure to lawmakers.

But there's also issues with small flock/backyard people. You never know what might pop up in these flocks and when you have people that want to give antibiotics anytime their chicken sneezes, you can wind up with an even bigger mess and not even know it.

There is good and bad in the poultry testing requirements - like pretty much anything else.

 

[bnjrob]

I am really glad the question of MG came up also as I previously read about having to destroy the flock, ect. That went a bit against my grain and in my case I would probably quit chickens forever if that were the case of having to destroy everything I"ve built up the past two years.

That said, we appear to be having an outbreak of dry fowl pox here. Even the worst affected, a 6 yr old roo in a heavy molt is still eating and drinking so I think everything will be just fine. Many birds do not yet have the sores, even in the same coop.

I am wondering tho does anyone know the incubation period for fowl pox after exposure to infected birds or a mosquito bite? Here they could have been infected either or both ways. Just that was not mentioned in the things I was reading up on it.

While there is an active outbreak I plan to not move birds around which might stress them more, figured I would wait two or three weeks and hopefully everyone would be done and life will go on.

It's usually around a week, give or take. It can be really slow to spread through a whole flock. If it's the dry version with just the crusty sores then it isn't so bad as the wet kind that causes difficulty eating, breathing.

 

[bnjrob]

Don't get me started on that. My life on the farm has given me a very different view about things than my suburbanite friends. And I may get smacked for this (please, don't anyone take this personally), but I do sometimes question the incredible lengths we go to with the medical system nowadays to prolong life that would never have happened even twenty years ago.

Premies who are born at 2 lbs, and who, when they grow up, will always need medical assistance just to continue to live. Elders who are dying yet who are given one after another heroic treatment because their relatives can't face that they're dying.

I dunno. I am pragmatic. No doubt if it were my grandchild born prematurely I would feel differently. But for me with humans as well as animals, quality of life has always been a big issue for me.

I watched my maternal grandmother spend ten years with dementia, not knowing who any of us were, lying in a nursing home, body whole, brain just gone. Not for me, nope. I want to go like my mother did, drop dead of an aneurysm. Boom. Gone. Sign me up for that. I've told my family, no heroic measures for me.

One does wonder if we're weakening the species sometimes...

LOL - Laura, try being a Registered Nurse married to a Veterinarian that lives in the country raising various animals. Most of the time I just have to keep my mouth shut cuz no matter what I say on these things you mentioned as well as on animal medical issues, I'm liable to be making enemies on one side or the other.

 

[TheNuttyChick]

So forget the meds and vaccines and deal with loosing a few birds and let the strong survive?

I know you can never eliminate all risks when it comes to a backyard flock, that I can understand.