Heritage Large Fowl - Phase II

[BGMatt]

And there in lies the rub. What is appropriate? The records of the early 20th century suggest pullets beginning to lay at 28 weeks. These were birds with extraordinarily nice barring. Hefty broilers were taken for food at about the same time. Wind the clock forward a century to 2013 and while we have some stunning Barred Rocks and we certainly have made great strides in dietary science; we don't come close to those earlier development dates. We are a full 6-8 weeks slower and that is a long time and a lot of feed.

The obvious question of "why" must be addressed and addressing it is the challenge that we face. Some of us believe deeply that we've got to work harder and place higher emphasis upon these issues.

To be blunt, I'm going to quote one of my mentors, "the biggest problem with chicken people is they don't eat enough chicken." We are behind because we don't select hard enough and cull hard enough for those traits. There are some that do...I am very sure you will make progress towards your production goals you stated in this thread in the last few pages. But when there's so many "breeders" out there that tolerate less, and can't bring themselves to cull birds, or allow late bloomers to stay in breeding programs, not keep records, develop emotional attachments to their livestock rather than make decisions based on what is best for the breed as a whole...as a whole the breed, the poultry fancy is going to fall further and further behind. I'm definitely not saying I'm immune to that either, I'm almost positive that there are birds in my barn that should be in the freezer (only partially excused by just getting started again).

How do we start making progress? Go out to your breeding pens...does that third hen in the pen REALLY have all the qualities you need? Is the third string cockerel going to contribute to the betterment of the breed? It's starting to hit winter time, is that young bird that spends most their time hunched up and hiding from the elements the picture of health and vigor that will improve your line?

Now obviously change doesn't happen all at once. What we can do is year after year set goals and grade off our birds. Take all your pullets and if one of your goals is improving the average point of lay, mark the top 10% that lay eggs first this year, then from those, select the top 10% for size, or barring/lacing or whatever else you're working on. You can't select for everything every year, but you need to know everything you want to improve and make sure you're not letting too many negatives go through. Someone mentioned Dorkings and size, ok, they're undersized and some of the slower growing ones might get bigger, but slow growth is undesirable from a production point of view. So take the birds that are biggest at 4 months and pick from them, they will still have offspring that will get bigger than they are and increase your size, but they also will not have the slow growth. Or go the other way, say you have three cockerels that are just turning a year, two are 8 lbs and one is 7.7 lbs. At six months they were 6, 6.5 and 7 lbs respectively. Is .3 of a lb really worth feeding those birds for an additional 6 months? Perhaps over simplification but things like that are why our "Heritage" breeds don't produce as much and as early as they did in the past.

 

[Beekissed]

Well said! Curious...what is the desirable laying age of the typical heritage line bird? By that, I mean what perimeters would you use for the cull point?

 

[Ripster]

The obvious question of "why" must be addressed and addressing it is the challenge that we face. Some of us believe deeply that we've got to work harder and place higher emphasis upon these issues.

I'm with you on this point. I have just acquired Large Barred Plymouth Rocks this year and while they are too young to be laying yet, I'm happy to collaborate or help in any way I can.

 

[NanaKat]

I've been reading to catch up.
my Wyandottes pullets reached good size to make the six month selection for the layer replacement or the breed pen cut. Pullets were laying at 8 months (August) and two are sitting on Bantams Delaware eggs.
The cockerels were set aside by six months for either breeders or freezer grow out. Switched one from each pen at seven months for butcher.

 

[BGMatt]

Well said! Curious...what is the desirable laying age of the typical heritage line bird? By that, I mean what perimeters would you use for the cull point?

Think that'd vary by breed. Fred just was talking about the Barred Plymouth Rocks traditionally being 28 weeks or so in the early 20th century if you want to measure it against what they did in the past (although I'd imagine the Barred variety was especially late due to the slow feathering associated with the barred pattern, I know the White Rocks I used to have laid between 20-24 weeks and they were from a standard bred "heritage" line).

Just me personally, I target 6 months a LOT in my breeding. My goal is to have everything laying by that point (even the slow growing asiatics should be nearing Point of Lay) with the cockerels being ready for butcher no later than then. Late hatched pullets may not meet those goals due to fall/winter they usually start later. I would like egg laying breeds such as Leghorns to be at point of lay closer to 5 months, but 6 is acceptable. I'm kind of in a unique position here, because I know this can be done, I've done it with many breeds over the years, but after a couple years away, I'm starting over again from scratch. I'm not working with super rare neglected breeds, so I expect to start hitting these goals again in 2016 (3 full breeding seasons)

My reasoning for that timeline is varied, but at that point you're pretty much at the break even point for what you can sell a pullet for as a layer, and rapidly approaching the tail end of cockerel meat quality vs cost so there's a break even point there too. (also reference the old fryer, broiler, roaster definitions for meat birds they end at I think 26 weeks if my memory is recalling correctly, there is a reason for that.) If pullets begin laying around 6 months, that should be june-august depending on your hatch schedule, which means they'll be laying strong when your hens hit their fall molt.

 

[ocap]

So......

with any breed we should
1. trap nest to record age to first egg, try to keep the best 10%
2. weigh every cockerel at the same age (4 months) and try to keep the best 10%
3. best type and vigor from those?

please list other criteria.

now I need to learn how to wing band, the leg bands I have been using come off.

with a flock of 25 pullets that means that I am selecting 3 to keep from the first egg method. Now I am beginning to see why breeders hatch such large numbers. I might not get any "good type" pullets in the 3. I need to hatch 100 pullets to have ten to pick from for type and vigor.

 

[Fred's Hens]

I'll just chat a bit of what I do. Can't speak about what others may or may not do.

I use a calendar, with big squares and make notes on that. Set dates, hatch dates, hatch results, feather out dates, egg laying dates, that kind of thing. I also journal my matings my pairs and generations and transfer my calendar information into that breeders journal. I now also include photos, I nice modern advancement. Maybe it is my age and weaker memory, but I see it as a good thing. This forces me to Write Things Down. I cannot imagine folks having a good enough memory to just "remember" all this stuff. Nah. I'm amazed that folks don't have basic data when I ask them questions. When did they feather? When did they start laying? How many eggs did she lay her pullet year? I get a lot of blank looks and stuttering.

Record keeping is essential. This is hard enough with only one main breed. I cannot imagine how difficult this must be with those trying to juggle record keeping with half a dozen breeds. I need to focus on just one or two breeds. That's all I can keep up with. That's just me. Plus, I don't have the "collectors" disease. You know the folks that have a need to collect a dozen different breeds just because they strike their eye. I don't get bored with my focus, I guess.

 

[gjensen]

And there in lies the rub. What is appropriate? The records of the early 20th century suggest pullets beginning to lay at 28 weeks. These were birds with extraordinarily nice barring. Hefty broilers were taken for food at about the same time. Wind the clock forward a century to 2013 and while we have some stunning Barred Rocks and we certainly have made great strides in dietary science; we don't come close to those earlier development dates. We are a full 6-8 weeks slower and that is a long time and a lot of feed.

The obvious question of "why" must be addressed and addressing it is the challenge that we face. Some of us believe deeply that we've got to work harder and place higher emphasis upon these issues.

And there in lies the rub. What is appropriate? The records of the early 20th century suggest pullets beginning to lay at 28 weeks. These were birds with extraordinarily nice barring. Hefty broilers were taken for food at about the same time. Wind the clock forward a century to 2013 and while we have some stunning Barred Rocks and we certainly have made great strides in dietary science; we don't come close to those earlier development dates. We are a full 6-8 weeks slower and that is a long time and a lot of feed.

The obvious question of "why" must be addressed and addressing it is the challenge that we face. Some of us believe deeply that we've got to work harder and place higher emphasis upon these issues.

I have to say that I am with you on this one.

Really, I just think that it needs to matter. We do not raise these birds for the reasons that we did. Does not mean that we should not raise them as we should. Joseph, is a great example of how we should do it.

I think that they should be what they are supposed to be, and look as they should. In the old days that we like to talk so much about, these breeders were farmers, or their customers were. farmers are practical people. If it does not perform, it does not stay. I think that it is pretty simple.

Slow feathering is not synonymous with slow maturity. Birds can be quick to develop, and slow to feather.

6-8 wks is a lot of feed for big birds. Economy means something.

There is a lot that goes into whether or not a bird is a good bird or not.

 

[BGMatt]

So......

with any breed we should
1. trap nest to record age to first egg, try to keep the best 10%
2. weigh every cockerel at the same age (4 months) and try to keep the best 10%
3. best type and vigor from those?

please list other criteria.

now I need to learn how to wing band, the leg bands I have been using come off.

with a flock of 25 pullets that means that I am selecting 3 to keep from the first egg method. Now I am beginning to see why breeders hatch such large numbers. I might not get any "good type" pullets in the 3. I need to hatch 100 pullets to have ten to pick from for type and vigor.

I was just listing examples. You need to decide your own criteria. So don't take it as gospel. But yes many breeders will hatch 100+ and keep less than 10 for breeders. You don't need to trap nest to know who's laying, especially for first eggs with pullets, you can tell sexually maturity by appearance, checking the vent and pubic bones will let you know if a bird is currently laying.

Cockerels I weigh every 4 weeks or more to track their rate of gain, absolutely.

Breeding is hard work, and a lot of record keeping to do well and actually make improvements. I keep my matings small so I know who is passing on what, mainly trios or pairs.

My personal criteria are as follows from most important to least important (keep in mind that I am working with breeds that are in a decent place quality wise, so I can be slightly less harsh on certain selection criteria):

Vigor/growth rate/overall health - I don't medicate or vaccinate for anything, I want the biggest, healthiest, strongest birds to pass on those genes. These birds need to be thriving. This is mainly monitored as birds are growing. For growth rate my standard practice is to keep 50% or less of chicks hatched to 6 months of age EXCLUSIVELY on growth rate. If it is a problem in my breed, I would keep less, yes even all the way down to 10%. I do this for each gender, so if I start with 50 pullets and 50 cockerels (I wish it worked that way) by 6 months I will have culled down to 25 of each on nothing more than growth rate. I do this monthly starting at 8 weeks (the bottom 1/4 or 1/3 will be culled on the spot, before even looking at other qualities at weeks 8, 12, 16, 20 and 24). The top 10% at each stage will be marked so that they're not only keepers, but potential breeders as well.

Type - According to the Standard of Perfection. The standards were written to enable function, a bird that produces but does not have the frame to continue to do so is an outlier. I take my top 10% using the scale of points and mark them for breeder consideration. But since this is second to vigor/growth rate if I have a bird that is top 10% here, but not in vigor/growth rate I will not use it for breeding unless forced to. Obviously anything with serious dq's or faults according to the standard will be culled, regardless of other qualities.

Production qualities - I want good meat qualities on my dual purpose fowl and good egg production from my egg laying breeds. I don't trap nest but consider an average good enough, for example my cut off for dual purpose fowl is 150 eggs per year, if I have 2 hens in a pen that means I should be getting at a minimum a half dozen eggs out of that pen a week, preferably more but if there's less that means I might want to take more drastic measures (trap nesting, dying vents, individual pens) to find out who isn't pulling their weight. As long as they get passing grades on these they will be eligible for breeder selection. Meat qualities should be taken care of by combination of top 2, and egg production personal standards being placed here keep me from breeding from a superior show specimen just because of looks, failing to meet my egg laying guidelines automatically removes a bird from my breeding program (the bird might be placed in my show flock if good enough, but not bred from and will not be sold.)

Finish - Mainly color, but anything else that is purely cosmetic. This is where I cull down to however many birds I'm going to keep over winter. Standard comes back out, fine points of color are scored, birds are scored again both type and color according to SoP scale of points, I decide how many I'm keeping of each and the rest go away. I'll also make my final breeder selections on each breed based on both genetic line (I prefer rotational breeding system) and compensation breeding (not doubling up on weaknesses etc)

That's pretty much my exact process for picking my breeders. I try to only breed from Cocks and Hens, so I will have had a chance to monitor them for all the traits. I keep records of where they fall and then select the top elite few to be bred from. I may keep birds that don't make the cut for breeders for other purposes as you can see, but those 4 categories are what I use to go through birds. And I have it all written out (not in quite as many words) and read it every time I go into my coops to cull birds.

I AM NOT SAYING THIS IS THE ONLY WAY TO DO IT!

What I am saying is if you have to have clear goals and clear priorities and adhere strictly to them. Raise as many as you can and cull hard, then select breeders even harder. By the time i'm done culling out of every 100 chicks hatched I've probably only kept 10, and I'm only selecting from 1-5 of those at most as breeders going forward.

EDIT: Just did math on growth rate, if you start with 50 chicks and started at 8 weeks of age, and then continued every 4 weeks until week 24 and culled the bottom 1/4 you would be at 18 chicks, so slightly less than the stated 50% on growth rate alone. This is no other factors, and as I posted, there's a lot more to take into account on my personal farm.

 

[Arielle]

Well said! Curious...what is the desirable laying age of the typical heritage line bird? By that, I mean what perimeters would you use for the cull point?

Speaking from my experience breeding sheep, my other flock, improvement is based on where you are in the flock and where you want to go. Each year or two the average is a little better. It is slow progress: improvement over the year before.