Heritage Large Fowl - Phase II

[Yellow House Farm]

Is meat a consideration? If just eggs is the goal Rose Comb Ancona, Hamburgs or RC Leghorns would work well. If a dual purpose fowl is sought, RC Rhode Island Reds, Dorkings, Buckeyes, Wyandottes, Chanteclers would all work well.

I'm usually the first to say climate doesn't really matter, but Rose, Pea, or Cushion Comb breeds produce wonderfully and in some of those breeds are really scarce so they could use some champions. And the combs are less prone to issues then Single Combs.

Yup. If your winters are like our winters, comb is a real consideration.

 

[normanack]

You ask anybody who addicted to a breed. Did Bob Blosl debate the minutia of the SOP for Rhode Island Red on his Red's thread? No way. Never heard him even refer to it. He knew what he knew and he really knew it. It was zen, not minutia. Gosh this is hard to describe.

I am a enormous supporter of the SOP, dues paying member of the APA and do not want my remarks misunderstood, but you know that silhouette thingy? It's gotta get in your brain, your inner eye. Top line, head, back, tail, front breast, legs, tail, the whole enchilada. This isn't to put down the SOP or neglect the SOP breed specific details, but to form them in a way that is inner and meaningful.

It took me two years of listening to Bob and silently following along to get that Red stuff into my mind. It was, and still is, hard work, but it's coming along. I'm hoping for a half way decent Red matrix to work with mentally.

And no. I know almost NOTHING about many, many of the other breeds. Don't know a Marans from a BSL. God's truth.

Yes -- you nailed what I'm trying to see. First I see a brown dog. Then a big brown dog. Hey look, it has a broad snout. Short tail, yada yada, but look at the expression in its eyes . . . and the whole dog gives a sense of weight, almost density, like it has rocks for bones. The back, the bum, the belly, the strong long legs -- he's comfortable and calm, but ready for action. That there is a real Rottweiler in not just the details, but the whole indefinable Rottweiler-ness. That said, I'm only just now seeing the difference, almost feeling it, between a Rottweiler and a Doberman. Both big brown chickens ((oops, my metaphor broke) but oh so very different. I can't say it like you did, Fred, and I certainly can't see it, and I'm definitely looking like a loony, but yeah. That's it.

 

[filumene]

Is meat a consideration? If just eggs is the goal Rose Comb Ancona, Hamburgs or RC Leghorns would work well. If a dual purpose fowl is sought, RC Rhode Island Reds, Dorkings, Buckeyes, Wyandottes, Chanteclers would all work well.

I'm usually the first to say climate doesn't really matter, but Rose, Pea, or Cushion Comb breeds produce wonderfully and in some of those breeds are really scarce so they could use some champions. And the combs are less prone to issues then Single Combs.

Rose comb leghorns would interest me. Are the buff's bred this way?

 

[Yellow House Farm]

Again, the first 40 pages? Absolutely worth the price. Yeah, sure the individual breed specific stuff is necessary, but without the first unit? It would be tedious, and limited to those who wish to know the minutia of their breed.

I take a HUGE risk in putting in type the following. And yes, I check the finer breed specific minutia to refresh my memory when talking trash with others, BUT...

The Rock SOP is in my BRAIN. It was put there when I was a kid doing chicken chores and refreshes each time I see a good Rock. It is a kind of inner compass, a matrix through which observation of birds is filtered. I already know what Rock looks like. That "perfect" Rock bird. Of course, there is no perfect bird. But in my inner Big Screen visual project screen? There's a Rock. I don't need to open my SOP and read minutia to judge the birds or make my matchup or do my culls.

OK, I'll descend to my bomb shelter now.

I'm not sure this is a bad thing, neither do I think that it's not enhanced by consulting the SOP and objectifying subjective intuition.

It's a great advantage to grow up surrounded by SOP Rocks that engrave themselves onto one's mind and imagination. Notice how it intersects with Dragonlady's direction to hold a firm idea of the ideal in one's mind.

On the other hand, if one doesn't grow up raised surrounded by SOP fowl, one needs another path. Surrounding one's self with shows and fellow breeders is a nice addition.

The SOP cannot be replaced, though. What helps is to demystify it. It's just a book. However, it is the cornerstone of purebred poultry and the breeders who bring them again and again to the ever elusive level.

However, for those trying to understand the SOP, hypothesizing about it is of little value. You simply need to get the SOP and start building your practice. Chances are it needs to involve a strong understanding of the SOP, but, first, it requires a sense of patience, of accepting the journey, of wanting the answers and knowing that they come on the other side of what seem to be unlimited questions.

Get your breed. Start breeding it. Study the SOP. Attend shows. Talk to breeders. It takes a while, though. You need to combine all of this theory and idea-making with hands-on bird activity. It comes with breeding your breed, studying the progeny, comparing them to the progeny, selecting, seeing the results of selecting, doing it again. It's a kind of an evolution. Slowly, slowly, one becomes a breeder through working with a breed, through the Standard, in community, going to shows

 

[BGMatt]

Rose comb leghorns would interest me. Are the buff's bred this way? 

Buffs are recognized in Rose Comb, but are virtually extinct. I hear Curtis Oakes in PA has RC Buffs but do not know of another source yet. Thankfully if one really want them it's fairly easy to introduce the Rose Comb with an outcross to a RC White. You may be fighting white in the tails for a couple years but overall not bad and depending on the line of Buffs and Whites it may actually be a great way to improve type and size.

 

[3riverschick]

You ask anybody who addicted to a breed. Did Bob Blosl debate the minutia of the SOP for Rhode Island Red on his Red's thread? No way. Never heard him even refer to it. He knew what he knew and he really knew it. It was zen, not minutia. Gosh this is hard to describe.

I am a enormous supporter of the SOP, dues paying member of the APA and do not want my remarks misunderstood, but you know that silhouette thingy? It's gotta get in your brain, your inner eye. Top line, head, back, tail, front breast, legs, tail, the whole enchilada. This isn't to put down the SOP or neglect the SOP breed specific details, but to form them in a way that is inner and meaningful.

It took me two years of listening to Bob and silently following along to get that Red stuff into my mind. It was, and still is, hard work, but it's coming along. I'm hoping for a half way decent Red matrix to work with mentally.

And no. I know almost NOTHING about many, many of the other breeds. Don't know a Marans from a BSL. God's truth.

I agree, Fred's Hen! I don't know about any other breed than Marans. But I must have that
perfect Sussex image firmly fixed in my minds eye. Then I can discern balance and symmetry
in my Sussex. For me, and because silhouette is absolutely integral to the Sussex breed, that's
the most important thing. In fact, in Sussex, if it doesn't look like a Sussex, it's not a Sussex .
That's how important the mental image is. Silhouette is to Sussex as egg color is to Marans.
Best,
Karen

 

[3riverschick]

Let's go to the dog world for an example of what YHF was discussing about imagery. From 1994 thru 2002, I spent 1,000's of hours researching and studying the lit of the rough and smooth collie breed. I was a lit nerd, smile. Still my knowledge seemed 2 dimensional. Something was missing. Then in 2002, I took a trip to Calif. and spent 2 days in the presence of a smooth collie female who was the top winning collie of her generation.. 30 BIS All Breeds. I got to go over her and her breeder explained her. Then I understood. It wasn't until I fused the theory and lit with the living thing that it all made sense.
Get your breed. Get the best you can find (that's why this is thread here) so you train your eye on excellence, not faults. Then hold them, compare them using judging by virtue ,not faults. If you judge by faults you become a critic. If you judge by virtue, you become an admirer of excellence. Tune your mind's eye to the excellence that makes a fine breeder of poultry. In other words, " I am keeping this bird because it has more of what I want, not less of what I don't. ". Seek to admire balance and symmetry in your breed. It is very closely aligned with the breeds utility purposes.
Seek out veteran breeders in your breed. Either online or at shows and have them explain the nuances of the breed which are critical to selecting for proper breed type. There is a book out by a legendary dog judge ,Mr. Carmen Battaglia. It's called "Solving the Mysteries of Breed Type". Tho a dog book, its knowledge resounds across species. Including subjects like proper mind set and the importance of getting and understanding the nuances of a breed with which you are working. In the end, one of Judge Battaglia's beliefs is that without understanding the nuances of a breed, it is very difficult, or impossible, to select for proper breed type. Where do we get this information? From studying the history and origins of the breed ( how we got from there to here so we understand how to proceed into tomorrow)..and by talking with those who already have this knowledge. At shows is best because (hopefully) there will be superior specimens there for them to use to show virtue, not just faults. Like YHF said, it is a multiple pronged approach, which slowly starts to weave itself together into a unified field of knowledge which results in wisdom (i.e. , knowledge + experience) to make one's own determinations in their breeding program.
Best,
Karen

 

[Marengoite]

This is what I have been stuck on for awhile now. Couple things it needs to be good at...egg laying and surviving Michigan winters. I have been really considering the New Hampshire's(German line), but am also interested in Andalusian's, Barred Rocks, or those dark RIR's. I have plenty of spacious coops just sitting and waiting. Any other suggestions? I would also rather them not be to flighty.

Filumene,

Buckeyes are a good choice for Michigan winters. I was e-mailing a farmer in Benzonia who kept a flock and said they did fine. We have a few brisk days here in Ohio (I'm at the southern end of what they call a "snow belt" which is laughable compared to Frankfort where I grew up) and my Bucks do fine. My barred rock roo picked up a bit of frostbite on the tips of his comb, but the Buckeyes never got so much as a whisper of it. There are plenty of breeders in Ohio, although you might want to wait until after The Game before inquiring about them. LOL.

 

[Pathfinders]

Oh yes, Buckeyes are my favorite breed too, and I think they'd be perfect for Michigan! Having lived "up north" for many years (southern WI and northern MN, not to mention being from Cleveland origainally), I am familiar with the sorts of winters you get up there, and know the breed would do well for you.

Here are some pictures of my Buckeyes in the snow, they are completely nonchalant about it!

 

[Fred's Hens]

Michelangelo was reputed to have answered the question how in the world did he sculpt his David statue, "I saw David in the rock. I merely removed everything that wasn't".

The birds are art. The brush work of the artist. This is all I trying to say, (clumsily perhaps). The specific, finer points of the SOP for our breed are vital, but it can sometimes be difficult to move to the sum of those parts. But from the earliest days, artists were conscripted to paint idyllic picture of the birds. Schilling, to my mind, was a gifted artist.

Going to a show and seeing some of these living art pieces in person? Priceless. You can describe a true bred Rhode Island Red with words until the cows come home, but those words alone can never replace seeing an excellent specimen on the grass of your own yard. Words fail.