Heritage Large Fowl - Phase II

[thedragonlady]

Let's go to the dog world for an example of what YHF was discussing about imagery. From 1994 thru 2002, I spent 1,000's of hours researching and studying the lit of the rough and smooth collie breed. I was a lit nerd, smile. Still my knowledge seemed 2 dimensional. Something was missing. Then in 2002, I took a trip to Calif. and spent 2 days in the presence of a smooth collie female who was the top winning collie of her generation.. 30 BIS All Breeds. I got to go over her and her breeder explained her. Then I understood. It wasn't until I fused the theory and lit with the living thing that it all made sense.
Get your breed. Get the best you can find (that's why this is thread here) so you train your eye on excellence, not faults. Then hold them, compare them using judging by virtue ,not faults. If you judge by faults you become a critic. If you judge by virtue, you become an admirer of excellence. Tune your mind's eye to the excellence that makes a fine breeder of poultry. In other words, " I am keeping this bird because it has more of what I want, not less of what I don't. ". Seek to admire balance and symmetry in your breed. It is very closely aligned with the breeds utility purposes.
Seek out veteran breeders in your breed. Either online or at shows and have them explain the nuances of the breed which are critical to selecting for proper breed type. There is a book out by a legendary dog judge ,Mr. Carmen Battaglia. It's called "Solving the Mysteries of Breed Type". Tho a dog book, its knowledge resounds across species. Including subjects like proper mind set and the importance of getting and understanding the nuances of a breed with which you are working. In the end, one of Judge Battaglia's beliefs is that without understanding the nuances of a breed, it is very difficult, or impossible, to select for proper breed type. Where do we get this information? From studying the history and origins of the breed ( how we got from there to here so we understand how to proceed into tomorrow)..and by talking with those who already have this knowledge. At shows is best because (hopefully) there will be superior specimens there for them to use to show virtue, not just faults. Like YHF said, it is a multiple pronged approach, which slowly starts to weave itself together into a unified field of knowledge which results in wisdom (i.e. , knowledge + experience) to make one's own determinations in their breeding program.
Best,
Karen

There is a phrase used in vetting horses in England,,,"Suitability for use intended".That phrase is helpful in finding top specimens in all livestock across the board.

In my breed, I ask if a bird will be a good layer, with the running gear to forage, and will it mature into a good roasting bird as well. No good having one, without the other, as Orps are a dual purpose breed.

 

[Yellow House Farm]

Buffs are recognized in Rose Comb, but are virtually extinct. I hear Curtis Oakes in PA has RC Buffs but do not know of another source yet. Thankfully if one really want them it's fairly easy to introduce the Rose Comb with an outcross to a RC White. You may be fighting white in the tails for a couple years but overall not bad and depending on the line of Buffs and Whites it may actually be a great way to improve type and size.

I think I would try to connect with Dan Honnor if I were going this route. It would be very cool to see!

 

[Yellow House Farm]

Could you get more British? : Suitability for use intended....YAY!

 

[Ripster]

Dragon Lady, I like the way you think.

 

[Apdeb]

I think dragonlady as witnessed by her pics is in a league of her own!!!

 

[Ripster]

I totally agree with that. She's just plain awesome.

 

[3riverschick]

Stumbled onto this will surfing Google Books.

" Some of Lee's Ideas"
PRACTICAL HINTS FOR THOSE WHO WOULD HELP THEMSELVES
1N THe CONsTRUCT1ON Of CONVENIENCES FOR USE ABOUT
THE' YARD, THE GARDEN ftND THE FARM,
J. Henry Lee
http://tinyurl.com/mgxhvmo
I found very interesting , his coop design, discussion of sunight in the coop and
breeding pen design coupled with Felch's article on "Breeding Methods".
Who was J. Henry Lee? A brilliant man who passed too early.
Foremost poultry engraver of his time. Illustrator of Felch's
, " The Philosophy Of Poultry Judging" ( http://tinyurl.com/k8f59vc ) .
Obit: http://tinyurl.com/ks9dpqb Page 145 .
===============
Here's another real treasure. Frank Platt was the leading US Sussex breeder of his day and a renowned expert on the breed.
To put this in perspective, the english Sussex Poultry Club was formed circa 1906. William White Broomhead wrote his superb
essay on the Light Sussex in 1912. ( http://tinyurl.com/k6u24y5 )
S. C. Sharpe wrote his classic Sussex book in 1920 ( https://archive.org/details/cu31924003091398 )
Leo Outram wrote his classic tome on the entire breed in 1925. 1930's 2nd edition here: http://tinyurl.com/kbq86wt
Index of Sussex articles by Frank Platt in
Reliable Poultry Journal
Vol XXIII No 1 , March 1916 - February 1917
http://tinyurl.com/kootsrc
Sussex Breed Type or the Characteristics of Typical Sussex Page 479
What History tells Us About the Ancient and Modern Sussex Page 362
Valuable suggestions About Breeding Sussex
The Speckled Part I Page 866
The Red Part II Page 968
The Light Sussex Part III 1074
================
Look at this! :
How H.C. Sheppard Breeds His Beautiful Mottled Anconas
By H. Cecil Sheppard Page 1071

The cause and explanation for the confusion between Speckled Sussex and Jubilee Orpingtons
"The Sussex in England" Pages 543-544 .

This volume is chock full of articles on breeds we discuss. 4 on Houdans too.

 

[ocap]

Here's what I did with the SOP with my Light Sussex, Leslie. I got a
copy of the APA SOP. Then looked up the Standard for Light Sussex
variety in particular and the Sussex breed in general. Then I made
a list of questions of each phrase in order, from beginning to end. After each
phrase I asked, "Why?". Then I went asking until I found the answer.
After I was all done, I reread the Standard. It made so much sense.
Now I not only knew the "What" of the variety and breed, I also
knew the "Why?". Here's where it was listed on the SOP Large Fowl
thread: https://www.backyardchickens.com/t/732985/csu-chicken-state-university-large-fowl-sop/1090 , Post 1093 of 2090. Also note the wonderful annotated response to my questions by Dragonlady in Post 1097.
(Only typo in Post 1093: "Standard weight for hen: 6 lbs". Should read 7 lbs. The Broomhead info should read 6 lbs.)
Best Regards,
Karen
I think this is relevant to this thread because when the SOP
seems mysterious, it can deter folk from wanting HLF.

could you give me a specific example of a what and why, a very short quote from the Sussex would be fine I have a copy of the SOP. Your question and the answer that seemed to make the puzzle come together.
I am having beginner's lock on color and can rarely focus past color to see form.
thanks,
John

 

[3riverschick]

could you give me a specific example of a what and why, a very short quote from the Sussex would be fine I have a copy of the SOP. Your question and the answer that seemed to make the puzzle come together.
I am having beginner's lock on color and can rarely focus past color to see form.
thanks,
John

https://www.backyardchickens.com/t/732985/csu-chicken-state-university-large-fowl-sop/1090 , See the wonderful annotated responses to my questions by Dragonlady in Post 1097.
Just scroll down to 1097. Lots of examples there. One example is why the SOP requires fine skin texture on the comb. It is because the texture of the comb is indicative of the texture of the skin on the rest of the bird. Fine skin is stretchy and allows the skin to expand when the reproductive organs swell at egg laying time, thus a factor in better egg production. Coarse skin tends to harbor fat under the skin. The fat doesn't stretch so there is less room for the repro organs to expand, a factor in lesser egg production.
The color is simple in Light Sussex because the variety is eWh based. If you are reading the old books or studying the Columbian breeds like Rocks where they discuss balancing the underfluff color, you are reading about eb (Brown) based varieties. No help for us with eWh based breeds. If you are reading the old books and see the Light Sussex breeders discussing balancing hue of underfluff to top plumage, there is a reason. The 3 breeds that make up the Light Sussex were eb and eWh based. It took a considerable amount of winnowing to separate the eb based influence till the Light Sussex became a pure breeding eWh based variety. This winnowing was still going on when the classic early books on the breed were written. So ignore the lit on balancing underfluff to top plumage and use the rest.
Here are the differences between eb and eWh Columbian breeds:
1. eb based Columbian breeds have colored underfluff. eWh based like Light Sussex underfluff is white to the skin.
2. eb based Columbian breeds require the underfluff be the correct hue so the top plumage is the correct color. In eWh based Columbian breeds this is not necessary.
3. eb based Columbians can see black stippling on the back and saddle. eWh based Columbian breeds do not. Except where the eWh birds carry too much black
in the black Columbian markings and then stippling can appear on the back, but it is because the bird carries too much black, not a result of misbalance in underfluff hue.

That I know of, there are no single breeds, and only 3 breed varieties, which have eWh/eWh S/S Co/Co coloring. The Japanese bantam; Light Sussex, and the Columbian Marans (which is based on an outcross to Light Sussex). This genotype is really simple. It means the bird is based on the Wheaten Locus, carries the Silver and Columbian genes. Every section of the genotype is homozygous, i.e. the bird carries two copies of that description and is purebreeding for that factor. Pure breeding for Wheaten, for Silver and for Columbian. Because everything is purebreeding in this genetic formula (genotype), there is no color balancing in this genotype.
Yes, we do select for more or less black in the black parts, but that's all. And even that selection is for personal preference, not because the other color(s) in the plumage depend on it..

 

[BGMatt]

Again, the first 40 pages? Absolutely worth the price. Yeah, sure the individual breed specific stuff is necessary, but without the first unit? It would be tedious, and limited to those who wish to know the minutia of their breed.

I take a HUGE risk in putting in type the following. And yes, I check the finer breed specific minutia to refresh my memory when talking trash with others, BUT...

The Rock SOP is in my BRAIN. It was put there when I was a kid doing chicken chores and refreshes each time I see a good Rock. It is a kind of inner compass, a matrix through which observation of birds is filtered. I already know what Rock looks like. That "perfect" Rock bird. Of course, there is no perfect bird. But in my inner Big Screen visual project screen? There's a Rock. I don't need to open my SOP and read minutia to judge the birds or make my matchup or do my culls.

OK, I'll descend to my bomb shelter now.

You know I had to respond to this. LOL Totally agree. The finer points are great, but what people need first is to understand why the breed looks the way it does. A Plymouth Rock, a Rhode Island Red, a Dorking, an Orpington, an Australorp and a heaping helping of other dual purpose birds all looks much different, however they have a lot in common as well. Tail angle, tight or loose feathering, station, none of them matter much if that bird has no body depth or width to support a good amount of meat. Of if that bird is pinched up at the rear and doesn't have any length of body for egg production. A good solid head indicative of a solid skeletal and bone structure is important regardless of breed. All this stuff is covered in that first 40 pages (and then again in the breed description). I don't need to check the Standard, or have even glanced at it to know that the description for a New Hampshire body probably reads something like "Breast: Full and round, Back: Wide, carried it's entire length to base of tail" Because most of the dual purpose birds are similar in that aspect. The finer points come with time as long as you have it set in your head what the rough outline looks like, and you understand what type of body it HAS to have to do it's job.

Edit: To make my point clearer, butcher all those birds I mentioned, the carcass is gonna look near identical (skin color not withstanding).