Heritage Large Fowl - Phase II

[bnjrob]

I get where you're coming from, bnjrob - I think that's where the breed clubs come in; they're often a "go between" if you will and typically they do know the history of these things. However, I cannot speak to all breed clubs, perhaps the Java breed doesn't have one?

There is a club for the breed, however it has only been pretty recently that more of the historical info was made because some of the members have written some articles for the club. When I first got into them and was researching for several years before we ever got our birds, I had to find the historical data myself. And there are still some questions I have not been able to find the answers to even from some of the "older" breeders. Not everyone is willing/able to do that kind of research - especially if they don't know where to look or don't have access to the information. And with the APA - that stuff is copyrighted so only the oldest of some of their info (like the SOP) is readily available.

But then what about other breeds that may not have a club too?

The thing with the breed clubs is that they aren't always as active or as long lasting as the APA has been. We all heard Bob complaining about information being lost...well, the APA is the oldest group (and probably better funded/more active than many breed clubs), so they really are in a position to be the leader in keeping historical records and making them easily available to the public.

I know, wishful thinking

 

[TeaChick]

Here are pullets that are 7 months old, this was taken last month.

This is a cockerel I am going to show next month, he is 8 months old, I have not weighed him yet.





This is a White cockerel I hatched at the end of June.






This is my favorite SLW cockerel but he has not grown all his wing feathers back in from molting, so I can't show him.

I think the black-laced white feathering is gorgeous!!!
What breed is the white cockerel in the middle?
The manly looking fellow on the bottom is a fine looking bird!!!
Thank you so much for sharing. =)

 

[Wynette]

There is a club for the breed, however it has only been pretty recently that more of the historical info was made because some of the members have written some articles for the club. When I first got into them and was researching for several years before we ever got our birds, I had to find the historical data myself. And there are still some questions I have not been able to find the answers to even from some of the "older" breeders. Not everyone is willing/able to do that kind of research - especially if they don't know where to look or don't have access to the information. And with the APA - that stuff is copyrighted so only the oldest of some of their info (like the SOP) is readily available.

But then what about other breeds that may not have a club too?

The thing with the breed clubs is that they aren't always as active or as long lasting as the APA has been. We all heard Bob complaining about information being lost...well, the APA is the oldest group (and probably better funded/more active than many breed clubs), so they really are in a position to be the leader in keeping historical records and making them easily available to the public.

I know, wishful thinking

Well, I hope you continue on with your research...it's a lovely breed, to be sure. And, I also don't think it's wrong to "petition" the APA to make available historical information they may have that would be beneficial to breeders. Hey, they can say no, but maybe they'll say yes!

 

[bnjrob]

Well, I hope you continue on with your research...it's a lovely breed, to be sure. And, I also don't think it's wrong to "petition" the APA to make available historical information they may have that would be beneficial to breeders. Hey, they can say no, but maybe they'll say yes!

I enjoy the research and still do it. Gone buggy eyed going through so many antique writings - thank goodness for people that scan documents for online libraries. The historical research that I did before getting these birds is actually what helped me choose that particular breed to start with.

It would take a good bit of effort for the APA to make all the years of APA data available. And in my experience, there are usually a lot of excuses made as to why it can't be done because not enough people are willing to volunteer their time and go to so much effort. With people having real lives and jobs, it takes more volunteers to get things done and often only the minimum amount of things are accomplished with so few people passionate enough to take the time to do the work. So I won't hold my breath. I'm fine with doing my own research but for other people that can't...I guess they'll have to learn to do their own research or be forever wondering.

 

[Wynette]

I wonder if the APA has a library...? It would be really helpful if members were allowed to "check things out" and maybe scan them for reference. (Walt's probably ready to smack me...)

 

[BGMatt]

I wonder if the APA has a library...? It would be really helpful if members were allowed to "check things out" and maybe scan them for reference. (Walt's probably ready to smack me...)

One thing to remember is the APA doesn't have paid positions (to the best of my knowledge at least). A lot of these ideas make sense but it would probably take someone stepping up to volunteer and get things moving.
Much like breeding our birds, everyone wants the end result but not everyone wants to put in the work for it, which is why there's a lot of producers of fowl out there, but very very very few breeders.

 

[3riverschick]

I get where you're coming from, bnjrob - I think that's where the breed clubs come in; they're often a "go between" if you will and typically they do know the history of these things. However, I cannot speak to all breed clubs, perhaps the Java breed doesn't have one?

I agree, this is the parent breed club's responsibility, not the APA's.
Best,
Karen

 

[fowlman01]

I enjoy the research and still do it. Gone buggy eyed going through so many antique writings - thank goodness for people that scan documents for online libraries. The historical research that I did before getting these birds is actually what helped me choose that particular breed to start with.

It would take a good bit of effort for the APA to make all the years of APA data available. And in my experience, there are usually a lot of excuses made as to why it can't be done because not enough people are willing to volunteer their time and go to so much effort. With people having real lives and jobs, it takes more volunteers to get things done and often only the minimum amount of things are accomplished with so few people passionate enough to take the time to do the work. So I won't hold my breath. I'm fine with doing my own research but for other people that can't...I guess they'll have to learn to do their own research or be forever wondering.

The APA is run by volunteers, so there is not a lot of extra time to do some of the things that would make things easier for research. Anytime the APA charges for anything most folks get up in arms, so for the time being the research etc is in the hands of the breed clubs. Be very careful about what you believe in some of these historical docs. There has been a lot "manipulation" of the truth in some of the things you read about the old Standards. The Orloff story that is around the internet is false as an example. Some of these "stories" take on a life of their own after a while.

Kim: I don't know about the buff turkey being in the Standard at one time, but in any event the whole admission process would need to be done to get it back in. In these times once it is in the SOP, it is just about impossible to get it out. Lots of strange things happened back in the late 1800's and they had the same hucksters we see now, but back then they did not have the exposure the internet provides now. Now we have internet "breeders" and "genetic experts' they didn't have to deal with back in the day.

To me the most amazing thing about getting a breed in the SOP is that it only has to breed 50% true, yet we have all these breeds/varities still failing to pass the test. It would seem to mean that while the people want them in the SOP, they don't want to do the work or they can't do the work to make the breed successful. The BBR Sumatra folks should have had a slam dunk, since there are plenty of great Sumatra's around.....but at the qualifying meet they didn't even come close to passing. The first qualifying meet for the BC Marans was a joke. Out of over 100 birds one bird made the cut.

So that is what I deal with in my world. Everyone wants something, but not many want to get serious about it......it's easier to blame the APA

Walt

 

[bnjrob]

The APA is run by volunteers, so there is not a lot of extra time to do some of the things that would make things easier for research. Anytime the APA charges for anything most folks get up in arms, so for the time being the research etc is in the hands of the breed clubs.


Be very careful about what you believe in some of these historical docs. There has been a lot "manipulation" of the truth in some of the things you read about the old Standards. The Orloff story that is around the internet is false as an example. Some of these "stories" take on a life of their own after a while.


So that is what I deal with in my world. Everyone wants something, but not many want to get serious about it......it's easier to blame the APA

Walt

Agree with you Walt. Been there done that in various groups over the years and without enough people willing to dedicate their time to the work, not everything can be accomplished. It takes passion to do some things and make changes. Sometimes those projects can happen, other times people want it done but they've beat their head against the wall so often they just don't have the energy to keep going on without more support and assistance.

If people knew the true value of things, they would not complain about the cost of things so much. Usually it is small business owners that are the ones that truly understand the cost of doing business and the balancing act between trying to give the consumer what they want while still being able to make enough money to stay in business. Things are even worse when you're talking about a nonprofit hobby-type group and fees.

There are always conflicting reports to be found in just about anything. I've had some Java people adamant about certain things because of something someone saw in a book or heard from an "old timer", and I can find things that both support them and contradict them. But everyone has to look at what data they feel has veracity and is pertinent and make their own decisions. Depending on the subject, sometimes you can find there is just one truth but other times, there just isn't enough data available to say for certainty which truth is the "real truth".

Which is why it would be great if the APA could get people to tackle a project of this size of getting the old APA info scanned and into the computer and then start collecting other old poultry data and make it available. The more data that is available, the easier it is for folks to review it and make informed opinions. And the APA is poised to do a lot more than they currently do. But they, like any volunteer organization, probably lack enough volunteers to do the job I'm sure.

But it also takes people being willing to open their minds and not just continue doing the same things and having the same opinions just because "it's always been that way".

 

[fowlman01]

The APA is finally seeing the merit of getting younger people with fresh ideas. How an organization is run should be examined fairly often in these times. I may come across as just another old guy stuck in his ways, but I was born in SF and lived there many years ...along with my chickens......I am used to new ideas and if they are good ideas I have no problem embracing them. I am far more flexible in my old age than I was in my younger years. The APA has an election coming up and if the front runner is elected (Dave Anderson) we will have a business person as President. He bailed the APA out of a potential financial disaster a few years ago and can now concentrate on getting the APA out of the 1920's.

Walt