Heritage Large Fowl - Phase II

[MagicChicken]

My individual breeding pens are producing some interesting results.

This is my first breeding season with Black Javas, and my birds were all part of a straight run of day-old chicks that arrived last January. Four pullets are in the breeding pens - two I really want to breed and two for backup. The two I really want to breed are larger pullets with long straight backs but they are too narrow in the tail. The two backup pullets have better heads and nice, wide tails but their small size and incorrect back line are big negatives.

I paired the two long-backed narrow-tailed pullets with a large, wide cockerel hoping to get some large, wide-tailed, long-backed chicks. This particular trio was going to be the focus of my breeding program this season.

Best-laid plans often go awry. Guess who is laying? Yep. The wide-tailed, smaller birds are cranking out 5-6 eggs/week. The larger, long-backed, narrow-tailed birds are laying maybe 2 eggs/week.

The first set of eggs got moved into the hatcher a couple of days ago. Half of the narrow-tailed birds' eggs were clear. So I'm actually getting about 1 fertile egg from them/week. Those chicks better be spectacular LOL! But the odds are the chicks will be just as narrow-tailed as their mothers. It's going to take a lot more chicks to find that large, long, wide combination.

Results so far:

1. The "wide tailed birds are better layers" concept is proving to be true in my pens this year.

2. I wouldn't have known the laying rates if I hadn't set up individual breeding pens.

3. Healthy birds and production qualities - eggs and meat - are more important to me than SOP looks. I will keep plugging to get these birds closer to SOP in appearance, but they must maintain production while we get there.

4. I will have to extend my breeding season longer than planned to make up for the slow winter lay rate of the two larger pullets. I still want chicks from them so I don't lose the overall Java shape from the flock.

Sarah

 

[hellbender]

My individual breeding pens are producing some interesting results.

This is my first breeding season with Black Javas, and my birds were all part of a straight run of day-old chicks that arrived last January. Four pullets are in the breeding pens - two I really want to breed and two for backup. The two I really want to breed are larger pullets with long straight backs but they are too narrow in the tail. The two backup pullets have better heads and nice, wide tails but their small size and incorrect back line are big negatives.

I paired the two long-backed narrow-tailed pullets with a large, wide cockerel hoping to get some large, wide-tailed, long-backed chicks. This particular trio was going to be the focus of my breeding program this season.

Best-laid plans often go awry. Guess who is laying? Yep. The wide-tailed, smaller birds are cranking out 5-6 eggs/week. The larger, long-backed, narrow-tailed birds are laying maybe 2 eggs/week.

The first set of eggs got moved into the hatcher a couple of days ago. Half of the narrow-tailed birds' eggs were clear. So I'm actually getting about 1 fertile egg from them/week. Those chicks better be spectacular LOL! But the odds are the chicks will be just as narrow-tailed as their mothers. It's going to take a lot more chicks to find that large, long, wide combination.

Results so far:

1. The "wide tailed birds are better layers" concept is proving to be true in my pens this year.

2. I wouldn't have known the laying rates if I hadn't set up individual breeding pens.

3. Healthy birds and production qualities - eggs and meat - are more important to me than SOP looks. I will keep plugging to get these birds closer to SOP in appearance, but they must maintain production while we get there.

4. I will have to extend my breeding season longer than planned to make up for the slow winter lay rate of the two larger pullets. I still want chicks from them so I don't lose the overall Java shape from the flock.

Sarah

Just curious Sarah. Why do you feel pressed to hatch eggs from pullets? From my experience, the rate of lay and the viability of the eggs can change dramatically after the first big molt or before.

I personally never hatch eggs from anything other than seasoned and proven hens. Not being critical...just curious.

 

[brahmabreeder]

Best-laid plans often go awry. Guess who is laying? Yep. The wide-tailed, smaller birds are cranking out 5-6 eggs/week. The larger, long-backed, narrow-tailed birds are laying maybe 2 eggs/week.

Welcome to my world

.

 

[fowlman01]

It is always better to breed from hens instead of pullets unless you have no other choice. Pullets can change quite a bit as they mature.

Re how many breeds to work with. One is the best for beginners. I am currently raising Asils, Shamo and New Hampshire in large fowl, but I have the experience and housing to do it. I also have several breeds of bantams and waterfowl but I only concentrate on one or two breeds per breeding season. I have 500-1500 birds depending on what I'm trying to do. Most of the birds here are bred to the APA/ABA Standards. It is a hobby for me, I have no interest in making money from the birds.

Walt

 

[hellbender]

It is always better to breed from hens instead of pullets unless you have no other choice. Pullets can change quite a bit as they mature.

Re how many breeds to work with. One is the best for beginners. I am currently raising Asils, Shamo and New Hampshire in large fowl, but I have the experience and housing to do it. I also have several breeds of bantams and waterfowl but I only concentrate on one or two breeds per breeding season. I have 500-1500 birds depending on what I'm trying to do. Most of the birds here are bred to the APA/ABA Standards. It is a hobby for me, I have no interest in making money from the birds.

Walt

 

[MagicChicken]

Quote:
This year I have no choice. In year two I plan on breeding cockerels to hens, and pullets to cocks - assuming I have pullets and cockerels that are better than this year's birds. By year three I should be able to only breed hens.

In the meantime I can learn a lot about different combinations of traits. This is my first year with this breed. Are any of these white-soled birds split for yellow soles? (Hoping all are, but won't know until I cross them with a yellow-soled bird.) What really does happen to the plumage of the offspring when two dark birds are paired? Or two birds with reddish bay eyes and white underfluff? This year's breeding season consists of a lot of test crosses, a few of which are deliberately not-recommended combinations so I can see for myself why those combinations are not recommended. The majority of pairings are being made with hopes for some improvement in the birds as well. But mostly it is a learning year.

For what it's worth, these pullets will be considered hens in two weeks. They started laying at 4-5 months old. And two have already done some serious molting, which may be why they are not laying as well. Hoping their lay rate improves over the next few weeks. We will see.

I wouldn't know any of this if I hadn't tried breeding them. It's all good.

Sarah

 

[hellbender]

This year I have no choice. In year two I plan on breeding cockerels to hens, and pullets to cocks - assuming I have pullets and cockerels that are better than this year's birds. By year three I should be able to only breed hens.

In the meantime I can learn a lot about different combinations of traits. This is my first year with this breed. Are any of these white-soled birds split for yellow soles? (Hoping all are, but won't know until I cross them with a yellow-soled bird.) What really does happen to the plumage of the offspring when two dark birds are paired? Or two birds with reddish bay eyes and white underfluff? This year's breeding season consists of a lot of test crosses, a few of which are deliberately not-recommended combinations so I can see for myself why those combinations are not recommended. The majority of pairings are being made with hopes for some improvement in the birds as well. But mostly it is a learning year.

For what it's worth, these pullets will be considered hens in two weeks. They started laying at 4-5 months old. And two have already done some serious molting, which may be why they are not laying as well. Hoping their lay rate improves over the next few weeks. We will see.

I wouldn't know any of this if I hadn't tried breeding them. It's all good.

Sarah

Thank you for the reply. Sarah, I wish you only the best of luck!

 

[3riverschick]

Hi,
Has anyone used this method and how did it work for you?
Italics and Bold type emphasis are mine.
Thanks,
Karen

The Journal of the American Association of Instructors and Investigators In Poultry- Husbandry* Vol. IV New Brunswick, N. J., January, 1918
http://babel.hathitrust.org/cgi/pt?id=coo.31924070849744;view=1up;seq=35 Page 31

AN ACCURATE METHOD OF OBTAINING INDIVIDUAL EGG RECORDS WITHOUT THE TRAP NEST.

For a number of years at the Utah Experiment Station the daily individual egg record has been obtained by testing the fowls each morning. During the first few years trap nests were used as a check on the test until it was conclusively demonstrated that the egg record of each hen could be more accurately kept by means of the test, and in much less time and at less expense than by the use of the trap nests. Lillie, in "The Development of the Chick" states that in the development of the egg it remains in the uterus from twelve to twenty-four hours for the formation of the shell and laying. In other words, if a hen is to lay on a given day the egg was in the uterus very early that morning with the shell almost if not entirely formed, as the large majority of fowls lay before noon rather than after that time. In actual practice it has been found that if a hen lays at any time during a given day, the egg could be easily felt early that morning by a slight pressure with the fingers on the side of the abdomen just below and nearly to the end of the pelvus bone. This pressure should be very light and should come from the face of the last two joints of the finger rather than the end so as not to injure the hen or the egg. The test is very simple and can be accurately applied by almost anyone after a very few trials. The big problem, however, seems to be in catching the hens each morning so as to be able to make this test. This, however, soon becomes a matter of routine to the hen and is no trouble whatever if done in a quiet systematic way. By this method each hen gets credit for the eggs she lays whether they are laid in the nest, on the floor, or in a stolen nest out in the yard. This fact, and by checking the number of eggs at the time of gathering on the number tested, has made it possible to tell when a hen has stolen her nest, and has been the means of finding and breaking up many stolen nests during the spring and summer. When it is found that there is one or more eggs short from day to day a search is. made and the nest found, nearly always containing the exact number of eggs that have been marked up as short or missing. One of the most important problems confronting every poultry raiser of America at the present time is to pick out the individual hens in his flocks that are making good records and weed out the drones or robbers leaving only those of high fecundity for his egg producers and to use in his breeding pens. It is only a short time since the trap nest was first used. Before that time a few individual records may have been obtained by cooping the hens singly, but it was not until the trap nest was invented that individual records were made use of in any practical way. This invention though simple in many respects opened the field of poultry raising to a vast amount of research that has already been done and the unlimited possibilities of future investigation. Its advent and use revolutionized the poultry industry so far as the scientific investigator is concerned. It will no doubt be to the poultry industry what the Babcock test is to the dairy industry. There seems to have been a very
remarkable growth during the past three or four years in the interest of nearly all classes of poultrymen in these important factors, until at the present time hardly an inquiry is received by those in a position to furnish breeding stock, without some attention being paid in that inquiry to the egg record of the dam and the sire's dam and as much more along this line as it is possible to obtain of the birds in question. This condition is due largely to the interest created by the laying contests now being conducted in this country and the work of the Government and State experiment stations. This is a very healthful condition and should be fostered and encouraged by every legitimate means. So far, the only accurate methods in general use to determine the daily individual record of the fowls is by the use of one of the various forms of trap nests or cooping the hens singly. The latter is the most accurate, but is not practical except where a very few fowls are kept, and is out of the question in large flocks. This method is not perfect as it has some objectional features, such as initial cost, labor requirement, affect to the hens, and the fact that some hens refuse to go into the trap at all, while others occasionally drop an egg in the scratch shed or on the ground inside or out of the house, or hide their eggs during certain seasons in some out-of-the-way place. Thomas H. Taylor, Jr., in the report of the Rhode Island Station for 1901 pp. 334-346 gives the results of a test of several different makes of trap nests for a short period in which they obtained the individual record of only about 60 per cent of the eggs laid. Some of the nests gave as low as 15 per cent while one gave 100 per cent. His conclusions were that trap nests were not practical as labor in caring for them over-balances their worth. This was an early test of the trap nest and these nests were no doubt faulty in construction. Dr. Pearl in Maine Bulletin. No. 193 reports the results of their trap nest records for the year 1908 to 1911. The error during this period average 1.92 per cent and varied from 4.01 per cent to 1.03 per cent which is about as good as can be expected with trap nests. It is not the purpose or intention of the writer to offer this method of obtaining the daily individual record as a substitute for the trap nest under all conditions, for, like the trap nest it has its limitations because it cannot be used under all conditions as to give the best results. But under the conditions to which it is adapted it is more efficient in several respects than is the trap nest. The test is made each morning shortly after daylight, usually by two men working together, one testing the hens and calling out the number of those that are to lay, while the other gives these hens the proper credit on the monthly egg sheet and gently crowds them up to the one doing the testing. The two men go into each house together. One takes the monthly egg sheet and goes to the east end of the building so as to drive all the fowls into the west end, the other kneels down facing the west close to the wall just on the east side of the small exit which is in the south side of the building near the southwest corner. The fowls are all straight across from this exit and as soon as they see it open, first one and then another runs out. As they near the opening the one doing the testing quickly puts his left hand in front of the fowl, at the same time bringing his right hand up from behind so that both hands catch the fowl at about the same time. As soon as a firm hold is obtained on the fowl with the left hand, the right is dropped down onto the abdomen from behind with the thumb on the left side, and the fingers on the right side of the fowl's body, the second joint of the first finger touching the end of the pelvus or pin bone. With a gentle pressure in and upward behind this bone with this finger the egg can be readily felt if one is present. While the test is being made the fowl is held in the opening so that the other hens cannot get out. The fowls soon become so accustomed to this method that it is a very common thing for them to run up and stop just in front of the opening, two or three at a time waiting for their turn. After the fowls have become accustomed to the test, that is, trained so that they will run up to the exit as soon as the one doing the testing is ready for them, one man can test and record in the small colony houses almost as rapidly as two, but in larger flocks it is better for two to work together as described above. In training the fowls to run up to be tested, considerable patience is required on the part of those doing the training. The fowls must be handled just as quietly and carefully as possible, and an effort made to handle the fowls ,in the same way each morning. One of the big advantages of this method is in the time saved as shown by the following: In a trial for time, two men working together went through 30 pens in a long house and 16 colony houses, testing over 500 hens in 37 minutes. When the testing was done they were free for other work until time to gather the eggs in the afternoon. In running trap nests on the same fowls it took one man about one half his time for a ten-hour day to look after the nest, record the eggs, and free the fowls.

*An organization of individuals and institutions primarily engaged in instruction, investigation and extension in poultry husbandry. Publication Committee
W. F. KIRKPATRICK, RAYMOND PEARL, JAMES E. RICE. Editor. HARRY R. LEWIS, New Brunswick, N .J. This Journal is published monthly for ten months
each year.

 

[Lacy Blues]

I will have to finish reading that later. Right now, my brain is befuddled.. at first impression though, it seems you would have to be standing around like a vulture if you had more than one hen with her egg in the proper position to signal laying very soon. I have used this method when I wished to know if my hen was acting this way or that because of an egg. The only other thing I've done is accidentally scared a hen off the nest while checking for eggs and if there is a very warm egg left behind and no other hen lurking around the nest box, I pretty much assumed this egg was from the one that just took off.

 

[3riverschick]

Hellbender:
~~ Just curious Sarah. Why do you feel pressed to hatch eggs from pullets? From my experience, the rate of lay and the viability of the eggs can change dramatically after the first big molt or before. I personally never hatch eggs from anything other than seasoned and proven hens. Not being critical...just curious.
Sarah:
This year I have no choice.
----------
I don't either in my Light Sussex. Only 1 of my 8 females is a hen. The rest are 2012. All of my cockerels from 2012. Next year will be different.
Still, I have read a lot of good things about breeding from pullets, so I am anticipating a good season.
Best,
Karen