Heritage Large Fowl - Phase II

[MagicChicken]

Quote:
Interesting. I wonder how much of that size and health difference was due to added nutritional benefits of the whole grains as opposed to digestive temperature differences? Better nutrition could help the birds withstand the stress of extreme cold.

It would be interesting to replicate that experiment in an environment without extreme temperatures to see if there was still a size and health difference. That might help determine if the whole grain benefits were a nutritional versus digestive temperature advantage. Results could also depend on which commercial feed was being used. Even commercial feed could be hard to standardize. Feed formulas seem to change frequently based on what's available and what is cheapest at the time. There are a lot of variables to keep track of.

I'd take on the experiment but I don't have a big enough flock to work with. So it goes.

Sarah

 

[fowlman01]

Can anyone offer any evidence that a change in the diet will help a bird through a cold night?

Not just because, but actual proof that there is an improvement. I get the theories, but I have seen no proof.

Not trying to debate, just trying to learn something. I have heard it forever, but hearing it is not enough for me. Call me hard headed.

I respect the question in these times on the interweb. It has probably been studied. I first ran into it in the late 40's while living on my uncles commercial poultry farm. He lived through the great depression so he would not going to waste money or time unless it paid off. Game bird guys use that method. Chicken farmers used this method way back in the old days and they really didn't know what someone was doing 25 miles away, so that kind of info was not spread all over like info is today. This is a job for Karen to research. At this point it is just information......you use it or file it away.

w.

 

[fowlman01]

Interesting. I wonder how much of that size and health difference was due to added nutritional benefits of the whole grains as opposed to digestive temperature differences? Better nutrition could help the birds withstand the stress of extreme cold.

It would be interesting to replicate that experiment in an environment without extreme temperatures to see if there was still a size and health difference. That might help determine if the whole grain benefits were a nutritional versus digestive temperature advantage. Results could also depend on which commercial feed was being used. Even commercial feed could be hard to standardize. Feed formulas seem to change frequently based on what's available and what is cheapest at the time. There are a lot of variables to keep track of.

I'd take on the experiment but I don't have a big enough flock to work with. So it goes.

Sarah

I use a lot of feed here. I can visually see the difference from some lots of grains to another, so who knows what else in going on with the consistency .

w

 

[gjensen]

I respect the question in these times on the interweb. It has probably been studied. I first ran into it in the late 40's while living on my uncles commercial poultry farm. He lived through the great depression so he would not going to waste money or time unless it paid off. Game bird guys use that method. Chicken farmers used this method way back in the old days and they really didn't know what someone was doing 25 miles away, so that kind of info was not spread all over like info is today. This is a job for Karen to research. At this point it is just information......you use it or file it away.

w.

LOL. I thought the same thing. If it is there, Karen could find it.

I agree, and I do not want to come across as being argumentative. There is just a lot "wives' tales" that were proven wrong over time. Then some has also been proven, and people were doing it long before we knew what it was.

I just cannot rationalize how corn generates more heat than corn. LOL.

 

[thedragonlady]

LOL. I thought the same thing. If it is there, Karen could find it.

I agree, and I do not want to come across as being argumentative. There is just a lot "wives' tales" that were proven wrong over time. Then some has also been proven, and people were doing it long before we knew what it was.

I just cannot rationalize how corn generates more heat than corn. LOL.

Ask yardfullorocks how the whole grains have worked for him .He's been rather pleased.

 

[gjensen]

Herb Holtz tried feeding half of his birds on commercial feeds.and half were supplemented with whole grains at night during cold weather. It gets very cold in Muscatine , Iowa.During bitter weather,he had losses with the birds on ground feed, but none on the ones being supplemented with whole grains at night.The bonus came at slaughter time. Not only were the grain fed birds noticeably larger, but their internal organs were larger, and more healthy too. Herb was a very thrifty farmer,who also raised great Wyandottes and Rocks, so I doubt he would have kept it up,if it hadn't made a real difference.

Now, I can buy part of that. I can see where the texture or content of feed can make changes over a period of time. Just not a measurable difference over the coarse of a night. I can certainly see where a whole stomach over an empty stomach might make a difference. The motor runs better with fuel. I just cannot see how whole corn vs. ground corn makes a measurable difference of core body temperature. Again, I am not saying that it doesn't. Well . . . I kind of am, but I would not be surprised if I was proved wrong.

This is the way I see it. The autonomic nervous system regulates core body temperature. It is not like there is a thermostat at a single point. It is sensing an entire system simultaneously. The birds has an ideal core body temperature. The system is constantly making adjustments to regulate it as closely as possible to that ideal. If I raise the temperature in the stomach by two degrees, the body is going to adjust and distribute that heat more evenly. That is why blood leaves the hands when they are cold and we get flushed when we are hot. The result is that core temperature stays constant unless it is burdened beyond it's limits to manage.

A hot drink on a cold morning does have a warming effect as the body distributes the heat, but it is very short lived. As fast as a bird's system works, any improvements that could be made would be very short lived. They are pretty darned hungry first thing in the morning.

I did read two Korean studies (south, not north lol), where they fed one group bamboo leaves and another a traditional ration. The birds on the bamboo leaves survived believe or not, but they performed very poorly. The one notable effect was found on the autopsies. Their intestines were significantly longer and more developed than the intestines of the control group. Longer more developed intestines mean more nutrient intake. Their system was getting more out of the bamboo than their counterparts would have been able.
From then on out I felt the grass range was even better than I had thought. It is improving the digestive function by making it work. When you mention Mr Holtz's experience before, it made sense to me.
So, I throw my birds some whole grains while they are ranging.

 

[hellbender]

I certainly hope feeding my flock their 'specialized' laying diet in the mornings and throwing down about 5 gallons of cracked corn works to keep them warm at night.

Just got a bulletin that starting some time Monday and extending through Tuesday, wind chill factor is supposed to reach as low as 35 to 40 below ZERO. That's cold.

 

[thedragonlady]

Now, I can buy part of that. I can see where the texture or content of feed can make changes over a period of time. Just not a measurable difference over the coarse of a night. I can certainly see where a whole stomach over an empty stomach might make a difference. The motor runs better with fuel. I just cannot see how whole corn vs. ground corn makes a measurable difference of core body temperature. Again, I am not saying that it doesn't. Well . . . I kind of am, but I would not be surprised if I was proved wrong.

This is the way I see it. The autonomic nervous system regulates core body temperature. It is not like there is a thermostat at a single point. It is sensing an entire system simultaneously. The birds has an ideal core body temperature. The system is constantly making adjustments to regulate it as closely as possible to that ideal. If I raise the temperature in the stomach by two degrees, the body is going to adjust and distribute that heat more evenly. That is why blood leaves the hands when they are cold and we get flushed when we are hot. The result is that core temperature stays constant unless it is burdened beyond it's limits to manage.

A hot drink on a cold morning does have a warming effect as the body distributes the heat, but it is very short lived. As fast as a bird's system works, any improvements that could be made would be very short lived. They are pretty darned hungry first thing in the morning.

I did read two Korean studies (south, not north lol), where they fed one group bamboo leaves and another a traditional ration. The birds on the bamboo leaves survived believe or not, but they performed very poorly. The one notable effect was found on the autopsies. Their intestines were significantly longer and more developed than the intestines of the control group. Longer more developed intestines mean more nutrient intake. Their system was getting more out of the bamboo than their counterparts would have been able.
From then on out I felt the grass range was even better than I had thought. It is improving the digestive function by making it work. When you mention Mr Holtz's experience before, it made sense to me.
So, I throw my birds some whole grains while they are ranging.

To understand how whole grains work to keep a bird warm, you have to first understand that birds do not stay warm like mammals do,A chicken's crop is a fermentation vat. The more indigestible material that is added to the basic ration , the greater the amount of heat produced.I do not feed a lot of whole grains during the summer months,as it simply makes the birds too hot.When I feed a lot of whole grains,I add more Calf Manna to their ration,as I am lowering the protein level with the addition of those whole grains.

 

[thedragonlady]

I certainly hope feeding my flock their 'specialized' laying diet in the mornings and throwing down about 5 gallons of cracked corn works to keep them warm at night.

Just got a bulletin that starting some time Monday and extending through Tuesday, wind chill factor is supposed to reach as low as 35 to 40 below ZERO. That's cold.

Whole oats would keep them warmer !

 

[gjensen]

That is cold.

Time to buckle down. That kind of cold is nothing to play with.