Heritage Large Fowl - Phase II

[fowlman01]

No it is not rocket science, but there is a lot of conflicting information out there. Difficult to sort through it all sometimes. A lot of myths, wives tales, general bs, conflicting studies.

You hear one experienced breeder say this, and another that. Both are sharp, but they both cannot be right.

Then you think you have it, and along the way find out that you were wrong.

You would think that an animal that we have kept for thousands of years would have been figured out by now.

I am getting to the point that I do not believe anyone and just try it out myself.

A very good idea to find out things with further research. Some of the variables are in the management and birds themselves.......not so much how long the sperm lasts, but I have found through the years that things that are true on one farm may not work on another. When I learn all there is to know about poultry I'll find another hobby, but that is not likely to happen.

Off to Springfield in a bit.

Walt

 

[saladin]

What's even more interesting than chickens in regards to offspring is turkeys.

A population of wild turkey hens deprived of toms can still lay fertile eggs (read that self-fertile). Further, all eggs laid will produce only toms.

Any way you look at it, that is just cool.

 

[gjensen]

The black in the tail is actually allowed but not sure if it makes it easier or harder. The under color is certainly linked to the black color. The slate color is linked to the color in the males. Haven't had problems with under color knock on wood.

I think my near term goal is to even out the salmon over the back. Plus working on cushion and overall type.

My problem is the opposite. I culled a lot of birds for under color. My birds tended to have very smutty under color. The birds with too much smut tended to show black in sections they should not.

The smuttiest of them all were also too dark in their body color.

Unfortunately the birds with too much late in their under color also have the best colored legs. Catalanas have slate colored legs. The ones with no smut tended to not have enough black in their tail sections and lighter colored legs.

So . . . the ones I especially leaned towards keeping were the females with no smut, good colored legs, and better tail markings. After considering type first.

Out of around 60 females (I really do not remember exactly how much), I have 8 pullets and starting to lean towards only keeping four of them. To give you an idea how far there is to go with this breed.

I have appreciated this discussion because you have had me thinking about and looking at a breed I know little about. Both of the breeds we are discussing are wheaton based. I have only had my Catalanas for a year, so I am just beginning to get an idea how to look at them.
I will probably keep a reserve of color (under color) , and maybe a hen with some speckling , in case I start losing black in the females tails. Just as a precaution, because I do not know what I am doing.

I think black is a balancing act with these birds. I saw that with the NH. I learned to look at their under color and wing sections. The German strain is so nicely marked (black), that my attention was more on how correctly the tail section was marked. I imagine that in time that they could go down hill if no attention is paid to it.

 

[Extra Java]

What's even more interesting than chickens in regards to offspring is turkeys.

A population of wild turkey hens deprived of toms can still lay fertile eggs (read that self-fertile). Further, all eggs laid will produce only toms.

Any way you look at it, that is just cool.

Yes - Parthenogenesis is researched continuously in turkeys especially the Beltsville Small White.

 

[gjensen]

Saladin was giving us information from Poultry Studies and from Poultry Science. We should all be life long learners.

Some do not like the fact that you can have eggs fertilized by the old rooster after 14 days because they have used this for a lot of years. It is hard to find out that there were likely chicks that had a different sire.

Of course knowing and learning will make future breeding efforts better.

Saladin is a friend. He knows how to take me. Something that is not so easy in these posts.

I was just remarking on the varying information.

I appreciated that he contributed, because it challenged my assumptions. I kind of like erring on the cautious side.

Ron in my older and older age, I appreciate correction. It is better than being wrong. I am hard headed, but I do appreciate it. So thank you for the correction.

 

[gjensen]

What's even more interesting than chickens in regards to offspring is turkeys.

A population of wild turkey hens deprived of toms can still lay fertile eggs (read that self-fertile). Further, all eggs laid will produce only toms.

Any way you look at it, that is just cool.

This is common in reptiles.

It was largely unknown until zoo collections. The first account that I am aware of was a female timber rattlesnake (Crotalus horridus). She had been in captivity alone for many years, and then laid a few slugs and a few viable young. Since it has been identified in fence lizards and many other species.

There is some lizards that can actually be both.

I guess the creator put species survival checks in place.

 

[gjensen]

You caught my mistake thanks! Totally messed up what I was trying to say. I know that the standard says no black in the tail. But I have yet to see a faverolles female with no black in the tail. Among most breeders it seems pretty accepted that there will always be some black in the females tail. Not sure if that helps the evenness of color over the back of the hen. I imagine that it might affect the males color if there was no black in the females tail. This holds true for birds that I have seen pictures of all over Europe and the US. Every hen has at least some black on here main tail but I guess I should be selecting for less and less. Some of the European birds have faded grey tail coloring. But none I have seen are pure salmon brown. Maybe it is a just an inevitable struggle with the breed.

That is one of the challenges I was alluding to. With slate under color and so much black in the males . . . That is where I was coming from when I said I did not know which was worse. Trying to get correctly marked female tails or no black in wheaton based female tails.

That slate under color that seams to be needed for correctly marked males, is a burden on correctly marked females. So it seams anyways.

This stuff will challenge a view on being against running a female and male line.

These challenges is part of the fun though, I think. When you start trying to breed the total bird, including the challenging color requirements, then a breed that is not well refined . . . There is a lot.

 

[gjensen]

Candling as you suggested in one post is the best possible way to make sure that the hen is no longer fertile. However, do remember that even a fertile hen can lay a clear egg every now and again. I had this happen just the other week. I always mark the eggs as to the hen and the date collected. I had 3 eggs that were fertile and her 4th egg was not, but the 5th was. Go figure. You know that old saying, 'life happens.' Well, sometimes nature can throw a curve ball even when she's been throwing strikes.

Yeah, I know what you mean. I have been thrown a big curve ball, and keep getting them. I am still trying to learn how to hit the darn things. You know what I am talking about.

I am glad this got brought up today. It is important for me to know certainly who is from who this year.

 

[call ducks]

The hen is an intresting animal....

I know just about a year ago (will in 2013) some new studies did show that they could store sperm for longer periods of time than we believed. Now that I need it I can't find the information.

 

[Extra Java]

I wish there was more information about wheaten as well.
(Though I realize in the Faverolle "salmon" is a bit different with silver genetics etc which adds to the fun).

The only article I could find was one of Doc Everett's written a while back on Wheaten Cubalayas.

Thanks Doc!

Edited to add the link:
http://www.backyardpoultrymag.com/2-3/charles_rh_everett/