Heritage Large Fowl - Phase II

[thedragonlady]

Thank you for the link.

Wheaton can be a tough nut to crack, when it is with something else. It does not always seam to act how it is supposed to.

Many in Europe think there is a dominant and recessive wheaton. I tend to think it depends, and can be co dominant. This was confirmed for me when a friend shared some photos of wheaton/partridge crosses that showed characteristics of both. In that case at least, it seamed to be co dominant.

I agree that there is a dominant, and recessive based Wheaten. How else would you get a Buff without it ? Your boy should be dominant for gold, ie. recessive wheaten, George.

 

[Lacy Blues]

Alright I need some practiced eyes here. I have the chance to get one or two or even three of these Breda cockerals. Their leg feathers have been pretty beat up by the mud but I need some advice in choosing a good cockerel here. Since they are Blue and Black I am considering taking one of each.

I would say your choices are blue and darker blue, no blacks. You can tell by looking at the feathers on the breast. I don't know a single thing about the breed but for blue color, I wouldn't touch any in the group at the top. I realize they are filthy from the mud but unless they were rolling in it, they are carrying gold something as it shows up on their backs as well. They also appear to have white under color. Blue requires a slate under color. For a blue, I'd choose the one on the left in the second set of pictures. In the bottom shot... are these two more birds or the same as the two above it? Looking at the lacing on the breast and the long hackles on the one lying down, I'm venturing a guess that these two are different birds from those above? If so, I'd choose that one, the one lying down.

This opinion is based solely upon your choice of color/pattern.

 

[Penny Hen]

I would say your choices are blue and darker blue, no blacks. You can tell by looking at the feathers on the breast. I don't know a single thing about the breed but for blue color, I wouldn't touch any in the group at the top. I realize they are filthy from the mud but unless they were rolling in it, they are carrying gold something as it shows up on their backs as well. They also appear to have white under color. Blue requires a slate under color. For a blue, I'd choose the one on the left in the second set of pictures. In the bottom shot... are these two more birds or the same as the two above it? Looking at the lacing on the breast and the long hackles on the one lying down, I'm venturing a guess that these two are different birds from those above? If so, I'd choose that one, the one lying down.

This opinion is based solely upon your choice of color/pattern.

There is a total of 5. Three blues and 2 darker ones. I am not sure if they are in the same order picture to picture

 

[Lacy Blues]

Ok, then the two at the bottom are the same as the two sets above them. So, I guess I like the bird on the left. If you really want to choose one of the lighter blues, I would probably go with the one on the far right. Again, this opinion is only for color.

 

[BGMatt]

Alright I need some practiced eyes here. I have the chance to get one or two or even three of these Breda cockerals. Their leg feathers have been pretty beat up by the mud but I need some advice in choosing a good cockerel here. Since they are Blue and Black I am considering taking one of each.

Hard to say, Breda's aren't a heritage breed since they're non-standard, only thing I can comment on is color in the Blue birds. The one on the right of the first picture seems to have the most defined lacing/edging which can be hard to get. The tint on photo makes it look like all of them have a decent amount of brown casting to them which is another thing that needs to be culled hard for in blues of any breed, and again hard to judge shade from a photo but the blue on the right in that picture seems to have the least amount of brown tinge to them. So that'd be the one to go for.

Edit: I see I was beaten by Lacy Blues on the comment on the brown/gold but they explained it far better.

 

[Penny Hen]

Hard to say, Breda's aren't a heritage breed since they're non-standard, only thing I can comment on is color in the Blue birds. The one on the right of the first picture seems to have the most defined lacing/edging which can be hard to get. The tint on photo makes it look like all of them have a decent amount of brown casting to them which is another thing that needs to be culled hard for in blues of any breed, and again hard to judge shade from a photo but the blue on the right in that picture seems to have the least amount of brown tinge to them. So that'd be the one to go for.

Edit: I see I was beaten by Lacy Blues on the comment on the brown/gold but they explained it far better.

Well I know they are too new here to be in the APA but they have a history here in the States. They were a very common chicken pre-Civil War. The Devastation of the War plus the influx of new breeds made them go extinct. At that time they were known as Guelderlands or Guelders named after a region in Europe.

 

[Piet]

Hard to say, Breda's aren't a heritage breed since they're non-standard, only thing I can comment on is color in the Blue birds. The one on the right of the first picture seems to have the most defined lacing/edging which can be hard to get. The tint on photo makes it look like all of them have a decent amount of brown casting to them which is another thing that needs to be culled hard for in blues of any breed, and again hard to judge shade from a photo but the blue on the right in that picture seems to have the least amount of brown tinge to them. So that'd be the one to go for.

Edit: I see I was beaten by Lacy Blues on the comment on the brown/gold but they explained it far better.

The "Breda fowl "(Breda is a Dutch city where it started out, And Gelderland is just next to it)..It is standardized in Holland and we call it Kraaikop. (crowhead) They are related to Polish, Polish are also misunderstood in the name, they are another Dutch breed. Some similarities are the large open nostrils and the Kraaikop also has some head tufts. They are shown in various color varieties and not that uncommon. I am often surprised how little there is know in North America about birds in other countries other than the USA, different than from what is already standardized. These imported birds are being sold for a high dollar and to me, if they are not standardized, they are worth maybe 5 bucks for soup. They should be given (!) and bred up first by breeders who know what the heck they are doing and presented to APA, give em a real shot at staying a good true breeding breed and get protection of a standard first before being exploited or nothing will ever come of it. They will just disappear again, but someone filled their pockets. If someone wants to learn about them other than a fancy love story on some "saleswebsite" they can PM me and I will direct them to the specialty club. Piet

 

[gjensen]

I agree that there is a dominant, and recessive based Wheaten. How else would you get a Buff without it ? Your boy should be dominant for gold, ie. recessive wheaten, George.

There is a long standing debate among geneticists about whether there is more than one wheaton gene. One dominant and one recessive, or a single gene acting differently depending what it is coupled with.

There are some good geneticists that claim that they have never found a recessive allele, and that modifying genes determine it's dominance.

Then there are good geneticists that claim to have found evidence that there is. Seams it is often coupled with something else, so it seams both sides could claim this evidence to make their claim.

One thing that cautions me from determining anything definite among geneticists is that they all depend on other people's work. It becomes a matter of considering the source. No dummy like me can sort through all of that. I would feel confident about one side or the other if there was ever a solid consensus between the two camps. As far as I know, there is more than two "wheaton genes".

There is no way that I could debate this, because I have no position. I am not qualified to have a position, but I have observed the different modern positions. I have also noticed wheaton acting differently in different cases. Like Piet mentioned above. Upon initial observation, wheaten appeared recessive. But under further examination . . . .

I am familiar with how what is expressed is a chemical reaction, and that proteins determine the result. They either inhibit or admit a reaction to take place. So obviously it will act differently in different cases. That is about all I can handle before my eyes glaze over.

The only reason that I ended up wandering into this dark wood, is trying to get an understanding how to breed what I have. I all I really want to know is how to apply it practically.

I do not trust the "codes" that get tossed around and believed in either. What we have is often a bit different than when they were written. Then the under standing of these things evolve.

To sum it up, Doubting Thomas is doubting again.

 

[gjensen]

Alright I need some practiced eyes here. I have the chance to get one or two or even three of these Breda cockerals. Their leg feathers have been pretty beat up by the mud but I need some advice in choosing a good cockerel here. Since they are Blue and Black I am considering taking one of each.

I do not know the breed, but I would recommend handling them before making a decision. I would want to review the breed's Standard in it's country, and pick the most structurally sound birds.

 

[BGMatt]

The "Breda fowl "(Breda is a Dutch city where it started out, And Gelderland is just next to it)..It is standardized in Holland and we call it Kraaikop. (crowhead) They are related to Polish, Polish are also misunderstood in the name, they are another Dutch breed. Some similarities are the large open nostrils and the Kraaikop also has some head tufts. They are shown in various color varieties and not that uncommon. I am often surprised how little there is know in North America about birds in other countries other than the USA, different than from what is already standardized. These imported birds are being sold for a high dollar and to me, if they are not standardized, they are worth maybe 5 bucks for soup. They should be given (!) and bred up first by breeders who know what the heck they are doing and presented to APA, give em a real shot at staying a good true breeding breed and get protection of a standard first before being exploited or nothing will ever come of it. They will just disappear again, but someone filled their pockets. If someone wants to learn about them other than a fancy love story on some "saleswebsite" they can PM me and I will direct them to the specialty club. Piet

I'd love to know more. I think they're a fascinating breed. I was just pointing out that they wouldn't be considered heritage by definition being used when Bob started this thread since that includes APA standards. I would love to see such a unique fowl recognized personally (have a bias toward large feather legged fowl).